Tuesday, January 22, 2013

OBAMA'S SECOND INAUGURAL ADDRESS

There was no mention of Benghazi, of the S & P downgrade, or the collective national debt. He did mention global warming, gay rights, and gun control.

But the most important part of his speech is the appeal to socialism.

"For we have always understood that when times change, so must we, that fidelity to our founding principles requires new responses to new challenges, that preserving our individual freedoms ultimately requires collective action."

You didn't build that, he might have said.  Nobody built their business by themselves. The invisible hand did.

But that invisible hand sometimes needs help from the government?  (The invisible hand sometimes needs to be slapped.)

I am worried about collective action, but I am even more worried about collective inaction.  Obama's targeting of various American problems seems to neglect the major problems. The major problems I would outline as these: we have a skyrocketing public debt.  We have a monstrous social program that is going to force employers to lay off millions of people in order to not get mired in that debt.  It is called Obamacare.  We have an economic downgrade as a result of this, and as a result of Fannie and Freddie still pumping money into the nether regions as if it was a Deepwater Horizon that everyone forgot.  And finally we don't know what we're doing in the Middle East. Bush had an idea that we were spreading democracy. He got the idea from PNAC.  But Obama has different ideals. It's just that no one knows what these ideals might be.  Qaddafi was bad.  But why?  And these new guys are better?  Why?  Now we have terrorism spreading out from the newly freed states down into Mali and into Niger.  Qaddafi at least kept a cork in it, as did Mubarik.  Now there's no cork.  Obama can kill people after the fact, as he did OBL. But he doesn't understand ideological war, because his own ideology, whatever it is, isn't clear. Can he define anything in less than vague terms?  He's just kind of tolerant.  Which leads to inaction.

Benghazi is the most crystal clear example of collective inaction on the part of this administration.  We still don't know what happened there. Tomorrow Hillary is supposed to testify (she is at present spreading banana peels around and drinking Daiquiris).  Will we learn anything new?  We do know now that Ambassador Stevens sent a wire on the day of the assault.  He explained the deteriorating situation. There was no response.  Collective inaction.

In the case of collective inaction, who is responsible?  We've all heard about personal responsibility.  We know what it means. But when we discuss things like collective action, who is the leader?  Who is responsible? If Obama was "responsible" for the killing of OBL as outlined in the recent film Zero Dark Thirty, was he also responsible for the death of our ambassador Stevens?  Are they equivalent?  Is collective inaction the same as collective action?

Or should we just think about individual responsibility instead?

"It takes a village."  Does it?  Doesn't individual freedom also imply individual responsibility?  We have some curious problems afoot.  Collective action is like a millipede where every leg must move at once to move the creature forward.  But without a single brain, a guiding idea, does it get anywhere?

167 comments:

jh said...

the machines are taking over
we no longer have to worry about a workforce
i think it will be imperative to provide ways and means for people to live out their lives with little or nothing to do

watercolor skyscapes
the new thing to do with water colors

jh

Kirby Olson said...

This flies in the face of the Protestant work ethic! I can think of nothing more horrible than nothing to do! We must get everyone to work! Day and night!

stu said...

Kirby,

There was no mention of Benghazi,

True. He has nothing to add now to what he's already said.

of the S & P downgrade,

He'd said all he was going to say on this subject a few days ago when he said "There is no Plan B." The consequence of this was that either the House would do its job, honoring the debts it had already incurred, or it would not. He wasn't going to bail them out.

This has been referred to as the "Blazing Saddles" negotiating ploy, not without justification. But it seems that it's worked. The House will vote on, and presumably pass the debt ceiling increase tomorrow, evidently without the kind of gross irresponsibility on the part of the Republican caucus that resulted in the downgrade last time.

or the collective national debt

False. "We must make the hard choices to reduce the cost of health care and the size of our deficit." Debt is merely integrated deficit, and the mention of one is a mention of the other.

But the most important part of his speech is the appeal to socialism.

"For we have always understood that when times change, so must we, that fidelity to our founding principles requires new responses to new challenges, that preserving our individual freedoms ultimately requires collective action."


Was the Revolutionary War an appeal to socialism? How about the Civil War? How about the Civil Rights Movement? How about environmental protection legislation? How about George HW Bush's "Thousand Points of Light?"

Everyone one of these (and many others) represent an attempt to secure individual freedoms and benefits via collective action. Indeed, you often go on about the law, but in a secular republic, the law is nothing more or less than the collective will of the people as mediated by the constitution.

You're not rational when it comes to Obama. You've been fed lies, and have gleefully assimilated them. You've stopped thinking. You're to the point that if Obama's doing it, it must be bad, so you've stopped breathing because he does, and have turned blue.

Kirby Olson said...

I don't trust Obama. When trust goes everything goes. I see him as an irresponsible sneak. Four more years.

jh said...

maybe we can

stu said...

Kirby,

I don't trust Obama. When trust goes everything goes.

I get this, but my point is that in order to color Obama's initiatives and rhetoric as socialist, you've had to embrace a definition of socialism that is so inclusive as to number John Hancock, Abraham Lincoln, and George HW Bush as socialists.

A few interesting quotes...

In re: Libya: "All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know: the United States will not ignore your oppression, or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you."

In re: Benghazi: "A few Americans have accepted the hardest duties in this cause - in the quiet work of intelligence and diplomacy ... the idealistic work of helping raise up free governments ... the dangerous and necessary work of fighting our enemies. Some have shown their devotion to our country in deaths that honored their whole lives - and we will always honor their names and their sacrifice."

stu said...

In re: collective action. "The grandest of these ideals is an unfolding American promise that everyone belongs, that everyone deserves a chance, that no insignificant person was ever born. Americans are called upon to enact this promise in our lives and in our laws; and though our nation has sometimes halted, and sometimes delayed, we must follow no other course."

"While many of our citizens prosper, others doubt the promise, even the justice, of our own country. The ambitions of some Americans are limited by failing schools and hidden prejudice and the circumstances of their birth; and sometimes our differences run so deep, it seems we share a continent, but not a country. We do not accept this, and we will not allow it. Our unity, our union, is the serious work of leaders and citizens in every generation; and this is my solemn pledge, 'I will work to build a single nation of justice and opportunity.'"

Kirby Olson said...

Obama doesn't mention lazy or profligate parents or laziness or profligate people but both are legion. Lincoln made it on his own . The Obamas were mollycoddled. They have almost no experience or wisdom between them and are bringing the country to ruin. It's a shame.

The entire free world is crumbling as they cavort on the taxpayers' dime and issue edicts from on high. I wish to God they would reign it in. I see him as the Snidely Whiplash of our time. A very clever man who speaks in vast ideals but for many reasons is unrealistic and thus a mess. You always have to look narrowly at each claim you make. I can't question each one with this Kindle. Points of light meant religious charity and god neighbors. Obama wants more big government.

Kirby Olson said...

When Obama is talking about people who don't believe in America he is talking about his wife. She thinks America began when he was nominated. Now she has something to cheer for at last. I hear his references to the Founders as legitimations of his arguments just as I hear his use of God in the same light. That is hebis speaking in a foreign tongue. He rejects America as ot came before him as he rejects our God but realizes the utility of this phrasing.

Kirby Olson said...

He speaks with a forked tongue. My mom loves him and like you she thinksbeveryhing would be perfect except for the Repubs. We just got off the phone. Endless laughing.

stu said...

So, what do you think of the quotes?

Kirby Olson said...

I think he's playing a game that can be read both waysbso that his internal polling is nt skewed and the "progress" towards socialism is not delayed but it is coded carefully enough so that he can't be caught out with a There You Go Again type of counter statement but anyhoo I think the vast majority of Dems now are ready for socialism if not outright communism including a Soviet style dictator as long as it's their guy in the office giving them handouts. It's time for them to set up reeducation camps. The universities are not enough. We must have denial of food and torture to anyonebwho doesn't submit to the program. However the Republicans are still holding out for a free society in which the free market is the centerpiece and freedom of thought and religion are key.

If no insignificant person was ever born why are so many allowed to be killed just before birth?

In the past people made their own opportunities. Lincoln came out of nowhere. So did Clarence Thomas or Condi Rice. Now huge government programs exiist to vault the untalented into leadership positions. Now someone like Obama can be a leader on the world stage but everyone suffers when a person like this who can't think well is thrust into world leadership. He's not Lincoln even if he thinks he is. His sentences are mush. His ideas such as they are have hurt the country. Many now think hard work will get you nothing. More important are getting in on government programs. Only suckers work or raise their own children or attend a church. He thinks we should mollycoddle people like his wife who hate America and give them free lobster quiche until they like the deal they are getting and while whiping their mouths and burping say You know I like America somewhat it has something to give me. Abortions and foam and lobster quiche and I didn't have to do anything at all for it!

Far more noble and inspiring was the JFK message. Ask not...


But only a fool or a true patriot would run against the gauntlet of the MSM now. They will shred anyone who stands in their way. The RGC civil war is underway

Kirby Olson said...

BO is the stanndard bearer of the RGC realignment which must be worldwide. This is why Obama doesn't care what happened to Stevens or to Crowley or to Zimmerman. They are on the wrong side of history. What matters is Fluke and Trayvon and Gates but we must not look too deeply. It's not civil. Anyone who stands against us in their militia or te a parties or who cares about their own children or justice for their own will go down ina maelstrom of verbiage and bullets. The government will crush them one way or another.

stu said...

Kirby,

>> So, what do you think of the quotes?

> I think he's playing a game that can be read both ways...

The first two quotes were from GWB's 2nd inaugural, the last two were from GWB's 1st inaugural. So I guess Shrub's a socialist too, at least in the Kirbyverse.

I think the vast majority of Dems now are ready for socialism

I think the kind of sloppy thinking that you're using here is a severe discredit to you. You're hysterical and paranoid. It's not a healthy combination.

However the Republicans are still holding out for a free society in which the free market is the centerpiece and freedom of thought and religion are key.

Actually, Republicans are holding out for corporate welfare (this is what TARP was, at the end of the day) and a decreased tax burden for the wealth. Explain to me how "freedom of religion" is supported by demonization of Islam.

If no insignificant person was ever born why are so many allowed to be killed just before birth?

According to FOX News: U.S. Abortion Statistics, 91% of the abortions performed per year in the US are 1st trimester, and 9% are second trimester. Only 100 abortions per year (0.01%) are third trimester, and can with any honesty be described as "killed just before birth." So again, you're spouting opinions informed by ignorance as fact.

In the past people made their own opportunities. Lincoln came out of nowhere. So did Clarence Thomas or Condi Rice.

You do notice that both Clarence and Condi are contemporary figures? But I'd argue that it Obama has a somewhat better claim to "having come from nowhere." Rice, after all, was a successful academic political scientist and was Provost at Stanford before being picked as National Security Advisor by Bush, and Thomas had previously been Chair of the EEOC and a judge in the DC Circuit Court of Appeals, a pretty standard career path for a Supreme Court Justice.

Indeed, Obama's dossier is a lot like Lincoln's. In each case, their national political experience consisted of two years in Congress, and a few well regarded and widely publicized speeches.

The distinction here is that when a Republican comes from nowhere, you think they've done so out of pure personal merit, whereas when a Democrat does so, you attribute it to government largesse overcoming a lack of merit. I attribute this to a fundamental bias in your thinking.

He thinks we should mollycoddle people like his wife who hate America.

You're lying about Michelle, whose comment reflected a real-world experience that many African-Americans have felt about living in this country -- more as sojourners and barely tolerated aliens than as 1st class citizens. What do you think Palin's "Real American" remark was all about? She was just saying that African-Americans, Hispanics, and urbanites generally are not "real" citizens of this country. Well bullshit. It's my country, and it's their country. If it doesn't feel like your country anymore, that's your problem. You might consider Sir James's retreat.

BTW, have you noticed that, despite having a universal health care system that is arguably more socialist than ObamaCare (single payer vs. personal mandate), Canada's economy hasn't collapsed?

Kirby Olson said...

It's always a question of who not what. You need the whole context of anperson to interpret their words and what they might mean by them. What GWB would have meanant by words is different than what BHO might mean. Think of what the word LOVE would mean to Charlie Manson and to William Shakespeare for instance. Think of how Marilyn Chambers would think of it versus Mother Theresa. Words don't exist outside of the personal context of the person using them. Obama is a worldview with which you agree. To me he's no different than a drug dealer except he operates on a far more vast scale. W. is about helping peoples to their feet.

stu said...

Kirby,

What GWB would have meanant by words is different than what BHO might mean

There is some merit to this, of course. But the problem here is that what BHO means by his words is what BHO means by his words, not what the psychotic avatar of BHO that you and the teabagger movement have constructed out of whole cloth might have meant by those words. You've literally hit the point at which you're so committed to your theory that real-world evidence can no longer sway you, not that it ever could. That is the definition of irrationality.

The plain truth here is that BHO is a mainstream US politician, who's only meaningfully differentiated from his predecessors by his mixed race. That you can't see that is indicative of a multi-dimensional blindness on your part, as well as a lack of good will.

Let me turn this around a bit. I don't doubt for a moment that GWB believed in the values expressed by the quotes above. The are quintessential American values. Nor do I doubt that the policies that Bush believed that the policies he advocated and implemented served the interest of those goals. What I doubt is that those policies were wise or effective towards those ends. Bush was, in my estimation, a disaster as president, whose unilateral foreign policy lead us into two wars, one of which was wrongly fought, and both of which were badly conceived, and whose domestic policies have contributed overwhelming to the national debt and to the housing-credit bubble and collapse. But this does not make him an evil President, just an unwise one.

What I see you doing is taking statements that Obama made in his inaugural, which express very much the same quintessential values in similar language, and reading into them an evil that's not there.

The problem, Kirby, is with you. You've become demonic.

jh said...

OMG kirby with horns
and a pitchfork

Kirby Olson said...

I don't see myself as demonic, of course. I see the RGC movement as demonic, and I see BHO embodying that movement. I see him as a race hustler in the vein of Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson, but having far less title to it insofar as his own family history and lineage never went through slavery. But this whole problem of ginning up resentment has been a demonic Marxist problem. It is meant to create a terrible hatred which will result in a rising up and then of course the inevitable genocide, or gendercide, or racial catastrophe, that results as the inevitable prescription to the endless description of a series of historical problems.

Marx was wrong.

The idea is to forgive and to forget.

But RGC has a completely different tactic. It searches for every last resentment and nurses them in the fashion of a madrassa, dwelling on them, and reiterating them, until every man is a rapist, every white is a colonialist, and the wealthy are demons that have exploited their neighbors to arrive at their wealth. You have bought into this myth and see in it certain historical parallels in ancient Jewish thought.

But the Jews were slaves, too, and they didn't hold the Jews endlessly accountable, or try to exasperatingly ask for endless reparations. They instead decided to see their time in Egypt as God's will -- after all, the Pharoah and his lineage helped Joseph and his family survive the famine in their own land, and so it was a problematic but difficult and finally a good time for them, or at least the best that God had to offer them at that moment. PErhaps the African diaspora could be seen in that light, too. The slavers may not have meant well in either case, but maybe God did. Maybe God meant to get Africans here in large enough numbers that they could ultimately do something for the horrors of Africa today. Few African Americans want to help their brothers and sisters in Africa, though, or even visit them.

Bush did plenty for Africa: he put in comprehensive AIDS medicine, and he also helped South Sudan separate from their demonic neighbors to the north. If it was Bush in the WH, we would be in Mali in significant numbers to help them out.

Obama doesn't seem to care about anything until his internal polling tells him it's time. That's what he appears to have done with the gay rights issue.

I grant that BHO is just another political persona wending his way through the power machine, and I grant to get far in the Democratic party you have to learn how to use the rudiments of RGC to motivate your base. Back in the days of Tammany you had to use Irish resentment to motivate your base. And in all cases, you had to provide handouts.

I just find it wrong for the country, and for individuals, to go along with this shamelessness. I don't think it's good for anyone in the long run.

You can find incredible sentences in the writings of Nicolae Ceausescu for instance who supports Democracy!

"We declare most firmly against the imperial policy of force and dictate," he writes. (Romania's International Policy of Peace, Bucharest, 1979, p. 28).

Meanwhile, he arrests anyone who casts a shadow of a doubt on his dictatorship, breaking their teeth in underground prisons and forcing them to grovel and eat actual feces.

Politicians will say anything and most of them don't mean anything that they say. They aren't after all poets. And even among poets you have a lot of political scoundrels who just repeat lies. You get this even in Ginsberg, who is constantly repeating drivel, especially as he gets older and becomes a member of NAMBLA.

So you have to look at a whole context. You lied to me and said it was W.'s work, but I don't hold you as a liar, because you were trying to present a truth to me, and after these years, I see that you are basically trustworthy.

Kirby Olson said...

We are just on different sides, and see things through different paradigms. I'm a conservative, and tend to align with conservatives. Truths come out of frameworks. There are no facts per se. There are only frameworks which appear to align with various truths. This is science. They agree that any hypothesis is only that, and that we believe it only so long as it appears to explain the evidence. Thus we are never really certain, and even if there is 100% agreement on global warming as caused by manmade combustion, we still keep our minds open that their could be an alternative explanation. Many believe that the reason blacks are not doing so well is that whites have oppressed them. That's too easy. There are many blacks who are doing well, and I think everyone needs them to do well. But Sharpton and Jackson and their ilk are not helping but rather holding them down. What they need are solid families, and solid skills, and a solid work ethic. Then they will do fine. I love Condi Rice, for instance, who said this:

“If you are taught bitterness and anger, then you will believe you are a victim. You will feel aggrieved and the twin brother of aggrievement is entitlement. So now you think you are owed something and you don't have to work for it and now you're on a really bad road to nowhere because there are people who will play to that sense of victimhood, aggrievement and entitlement, and you still won't have a job.” ~ Condoleeza Rice

Obama is quite clearly one of those who will play to any aggrievement in order to get a vote. He's just shameless. I admit he's also very effective. But some drug dealers are also very effective, but what they are selling is not good for their community. They should feel ashamed. But many people are simply incapable of shame.

Lessa N. Lessa said...

Sir stu might not want to know that my so-called "retreat" (note weeks before the general election, as Emmy recently mentioned) has largely been due to the exigencies of caring for a parent in the last months of her mortal illness and to the lingering aftermath of those cares.

Nevertheless. . . . During the interval of the last few months I see Kirby has accounted himself rather well as a feisty BHO-liberal gadfly by his increasingly whimsical and surrealist serio ludere style. Not quite as whimsical as jh's, but just as entertaining, I'd say.

And now that the election is past and the left course of the country determined in part by a second BHO administration, perhaps it's time for more whimsy. . . .

Seems to me what worked for the Ds this time again was voters' lingering fatigue and reactive fallout from the two wars, fears for the economy due to the long recession and anemic "recovery," and a creeping fatalism spreading among moderate voters that little could be done to stem the tide of statism and government control of the economy and nearly everything else. So they whimsically shrugged off BHO's prevarications, lies, empty promises, and endless blaming of the opposition and they voted for BHO or didn't vote at all. And then, as usual, the Ds pounded hard on their class war drum, demonised the opposition (aided by the ever-eager-to-please major media), and garnered heavy support from crony capitalist factions increasingly subservient to big government interests. If Big Government isn't working then the only cure is Bigger. . . . It worked for the Ds again, if not for the interests of the country as a whole.

So, yes, time perhaps to listen to the great classicist and "have some beer" and a bit of whimsy. . . .

JADL

Lessa N. Lessa said...

I'll add to the above quotations a few excerpts from a recent column by Janet Daley of the UK "Telegraph" in support of a few points Kirby's made:

"So Europe got the American president it wanted – the one who would present no threat to its own delusions. The United States is now officially one of us: an Old World country complete with class hatred, ethnic Balkanisation, bourgeois guilt and a paternalist ruling elite. And it is locked into the same death spiral of high public spending and self-defeating wealth redistribution as we are. Welcome to the future, and the beginning of what may turn out to be the terminal decline of the West.

[. . .]

The United States has now acquired an electorally powerful liberal bourgeoisie who are convinced, as their European counterparts have been for several generations, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that public spending is inherently virtuous, that poverty can be cured by penalising wealth creation, and that government intervention can engineer social 'fairness'. But just when some of Europe’s political class has begun to appreciate the dangers of this philosophy – that taken to its logical conclusion, it leads to economic stagnation and social division – America seems to have decided that it is the quintessence of enlightened sophistication."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/9668774/America-has-become-an-Old-World-country.html

JADL

Kirby Olson said...

I can't say how I've hungered for JADL's input over the past few months. He is much more widely read than I in many of the journals of Europe and England, and in many of the controversies. I welcome his return and hope there is more and more rather than Lessa N. Lessa.

It is very hard for me to hold Stu and Curtis and JH and so many others at bay single-handedly. With the disappearance of GM and JADL and Picklesworth I've had to do this on my own for months.

I sometimes feel crazy that I am the only one who sees Obama as a complete mistake. I see him as a Sharpton clone. He's not nearly as crude as Sharpton, but he has the same political instincts. He just dresses them up far better. But Balkanization is in fact just exactly the right word for what is happening to America as so many new grievance groups grind their axes and whet the appetite for revenge.

I think we should remember the adage to forgive and forget. Also, to try to see a larger picture a larger context.

Men and women are not just exploiting each other but also loving one another and raising families as well as they can and trusting one another all over america in spite of how this angers the left.

And blacks and whites are friends and have been friends for decades and decades in spite of the angry left.

Even PBS recently had a series on White Abolitionists.

They weren't supposed to do this, but they did it.

And in terms of class, weren't Jeeves and Bertie always very close?

I'd rather focus on alliances than on what separates us, even if focusing on angry incidents and harping on them endlessly can stir up voters, I don't think it helps us to work together. Obama says many people don't feel like they're part of America. Whose fault is that really? Couldn't it be in part because of people like him who harp on bad things, in order to create a victim group, much in the way the Serbian psychopaths did to create a "Serbian" national agenda that led to ethnic cleansing?

Or in Rwanda?

I hate that kind of thing, and believe that anyone who resorts to RGC is an intellectual criminal.

stu said...

Kirby,

I don't see myself as demonic, of course.

No one does. But you're projecting evil onto another. Just to be clear here, I'm not meaning to imply that you're evil, merely that you've taken on a spirit that involves seeing others as evil.

As for issues of race, they are real. You're acting as though criticisms of race based attitudes are essentially false, or perhaps at best anachronistic. Maybe Delhi is a kind of post-racial fairyland that nurtures such a panglossian world view. But I can assure you that racism is alive, if unwell, in most of the country. Tremendous strides have been made in the cultural battle for racial equality, but the battle is not yet won. And these battles have diddly-squat to do with Marxism per se (even though some of the warriors were undeniably Marxist), and everything to do with the US's legacy of slavery and racial exploitation.

As for Marxists as a whole, they got some things right and some things wrong. But this is a level of nuance too far for you.

But RGC has a completely different tactic. It searches for every last resentment and nurses them in the fashion of a madrassa, dwelling on them, and reiterating them,

Sounds to me like a description of FOX News...

The slavers may not have meant well in either case, but maybe God did. Maybe God meant to get Africans here in large enough numbers that they could ultimately do something for the horrors of Africa today. Few African Americans want to help their brothers and sisters in Africa, though, or even visit them.

Maybe God meant for the decendants of the Africans to be part of our nation. It is a more economical hypothesis. As for yours, doesn't this argue, mutatis mutandis, that we ought to be heading back to europe, and returning the continent to its rightful aboriginal owners?

If it was Bush in the WH, we would be in Mali in significant numbers to help them out.

I'm doubtful. We have no compelling economic or geo-political interest in Mali.

We are just on different sides, and see things through different paradigms. I'm a conservative, and tend to align with conservatives. Truths come out of frameworks

Yes, excepting that you're paranoid and hyperbolic.

There are no facts per se.

This is the laziest thing I can imagine a scholar writing. There are facts, and they do matter. Sometimes (as perhaps in English) the fact is that fashion matters. But English isn't everything.

This is science. They agree that any hypothesis is only that, and that we believe it only so long as it appears to explain the evidence. Thus we are never really certain, and even if there is 100% agreement on global warming as caused by manmade combustion, we still keep our minds open that their could be an alternative explanation.

Certainly the scientific methods holds all statements of scientific truth as being provisional and subject to refutation. But it is grossly irresponsible not to act on the scientific knowledge we do have, just because such statements are refutable in principle.

Many believe that the reason blacks are not doing so well is that whites have oppressed them. That's too easy. There are many blacks who are doing well, and I think everyone needs them to do well.

But too few. I don't think you can follow a probabilistic argument. The existence of a few successful African-Americans (like BHO) doesn't mean that there's an absence of oppression, only that the oppression that exists is no longer as rigorous or efficient as it used to be.

Condi's quote is fine, but it's dated in some important senses. Welfare hardly exists anymore. Most of what are called entitlements today are benefits associated with public insurance programs like Social Security and Medicare.

As for Obama, he calls people to work together, to find their better selves. Too bad you're deaf to what he's saying.

stu said...

Sir James,

Sir stu might not want to know that my so-called "retreat" (note weeks before the general election, as Emmy recently mentioned) has largely been due to the exigencies of caring for a parent in the last months of her mortal illness and to the lingering aftermath of those cares.

I was actually referring to your move to Canada, and not your absence here.

Seems to me what worked for the Ds this time again was voters' lingering fatigue and reactive fallout from the two wars, fears for the economy due to the long recession and anemic "recovery," and a creeping fatalism spreading among moderate voters that little could be done to stem the tide of statism and government control of the economy and nearly everything else.

Hmm. I buy the first two, which might be characterized as a rejection of recent Republican policies. I don't buy the third ("little to be done..."). After all, a vote for Romney was clear a vote for a diminished federal government, and a vote against the public insurance programs. My reading of this is that the election was clearly framed by both parties as a referendum on the public insurance programs. Pulling one lever requires no more effort than pulling another, so fatigue hardly enters in.

The problem I see here for the Republicans is that they got what they wanted: an election that constituted a fairly clean vote on their ideology, and they lost, 51% to 47%. The problem wasn't the messaging or even the candidate. It was the message.

G. M. Palmer said...

Stu:

Do you think continuing to focus on race helps or hurts race relations?

What is your position on the obvious acceptance of the controversial "human bio-diversity" position taken by essentially all college admissions programs with regards to race and SAT scores?

More generally, is it impossible to stop factionalization?

That is, you and I--as far as I can tell--agree on nearly everything apart from politics. And yet (at some points) this divergence has created deep division. Is this 1) not a problem and 2) not a correctable problem?

Lessa N. Lessa said...

Sir stu, thanks for the clarification on your meaning of "retreat." We of course changed our plans because of my late mum's illness, and now Emmy has several close relatives who are in seriously ailing health, so we've postponed our proposed move.

I think it fairer to say that Romney presented more a programme of diminished *increase* in the size, cost, and scope of the federal government, just as so-called "cuts in" or "slashing of" federal spending promoted by Rs often reported in the news are actually reductions in the rate of various budget increases.

Incidentally, global warming alarmists seem to have trimmed their sails a bit after their dire predictions about a rapid rise in global temps proved unproved (no significant increase in nearly two decades). Even the self-styled AGW Cassandra James Hansen. Now more and more the alarmists have taken to labeling any and all "extreme weather events" (droughts, floods, even extreme cold spells)--somehow--attributable to AGW, even though they used to scold those who made scoffing anti-AGW references to regional cold snaps that weather and climate we quite distinct. Now statist politicians have picked up the habit of attributing "extreme weather events" as due--again, somehow--to AGW. But Kirby needn't worry that there aren't skeptical climatologists, meteorologists, and other scientists to counter the phony "97%" consensus claims manufactured by the IPCC. There are, as I've pointed out in earlier posts.

Curtis Faville said...

Kirby: "If no insignificant person was ever born why are so many allowed to be killed just before birth?"

Stu: "According to FOX News: U.S. Abortion Statistics, 91% of the abortions performed per year in the US are 1st trimester, and 9% are second trimester. Only 100 abortions per year (0.01%) are third trimester, and can with any honesty be described as "killed just before birth." So again, you're spouting opinions informed by ignorance as fact."

Yesterday, NPR's News Hour moderated an exchange between an abortion rights advocate and an abortion opponent.

In the course of the discussion, the abortion opponent claimed that the new "concern" abortion opponents had about Planned Parenthood Clinics around the country was that they were "dangerous"--that "unsafe practices" and "uninformed risk consent" were being carried out! She thought all these clinics should have their operating licenses suspended (or revoked) until such time as their premises could be inspected, their physicians and nurses investigated, and their procedures reviewed.

Abortion clinics, in other words, were being accused of being somehow "more risky" than back-alley abortion doctors and self-administered womb-scrapings.

Suffice it to say that abortion opponents would--and will--do anything to get their way. Up to and including making the astonishing claim that licensed clinics are "less safe" than the old "illegal" methods--which continue to be used around the world, maiming and killing young women who are forced to employ them.

The millions of these women are of no concern to Kirby. Is it hatred of women that drives this kind of cruelty and ignorance? Or is it just ideological blindness?

Some people are disinclined to accept human nature. Kirby seems to be one of these.

Kirby Olson said...

Curtis, are babies human?

Kirby Olson said...

Curtis, are babies human?

stu said...

GM,

Do you think continuing to focus on race helps or hurts race relations?

I don't think we've hit the point of diminishing returns yet. I think it likely that such a point exists, but we're still a generation out.

There's an old quote that science advances funeral by funeral. The same might be said about sociological attitudes. Education is a necessary help, but it can only do so much to overcome deeply seated attitudes. In the end, generations like mine that have improved but not fully overcome youthful immersion in racist attitudes will pass away, and be replaced by new generations free of that taint, leaving our successors to explain to incredulous undergraduates racial beliefs that were common and publicly held without shame in our youth.

What is your position on the obvious acceptance of the controversial "human bio-diversity" position taken by essentially all college admissions programs with regards to race and SAT scores?

To view it as non-controversial. The correlation between race and SAT scores is much more firmly established than any correlation between race and intelligence.

Indeed, natural selection based in melanin levels works on far smaller time scales (at least in pre-industrial environments) than society generally believes. But skin cancers and vitamin D deficiencies are prompt causes of mortality, and so are effective means of selection. The point is that our construct of race based on skin color makes no sense. It is not a cladistic taxonomy, in the language of phylogeny. It is a grab bag. Thus, the notion that intelligence correlates biologically with skin color has a negligible Bayesian prior.

More generally, is it impossible to stop factionalization?

Good question. Humanity seems to have a deep-seated tribal instinct. If we can't find essential questions to divide us, we'll find inessential ones. Cubs vs. Sox? 'Canes vs. 'Noles? But these distinctions at least don't seem to correlate with presence/absence of opportunity.

That is, you and I--as far as I can tell--agree on nearly everything apart from politics. And yet (at some points) this divergence has created deep division. Is this 1) not a problem and 2) not a correctable problem?

I like to think that the purpose of dialog here is to attempt to correct the problem you're pointing out. I don't think it's efficient. Hope dies hard, of course.

stu said...

Sir James,

I think it fairer to say that Romney presented more a programme of diminished *increase* in the size, cost, and scope of the federal government, just as so-called "cuts in" or "slashing of" federal spending promoted by Rs often reported in the news are actually reductions in the rate of various budget increases.

I respectfully disagree, and I think you're underselling your position (or putting lipstick on it).

The Republican idea that we ought to privatize Social Security cannot be characterized fairly as an effort to reduce the rate of increase of the size of federal government. The intent is a major downsizing. Likewise Republican efforts to eliminate Medicare in favor of a voucher system, which not only offloads a major federal responsibility, it sets the stage for future diminishment of the vouchers and a de facto exit. This is 43% of the Federal budget.

Incidentally, global warming alarmists seem to have trimmed their sails a bit after their dire predictions about a rapid rise in global temps proved unproved (no significant increase in nearly two decades).

It may be that there are alarmists who predicted rapid rises, but the climate science community has predicted fairly slow and steady rises, while the earth's temperature rises a bit faster than they can explain. This past year was one of the four hottest on record, and involved a number of "hottest" records (e.g., the hottest June, the smallest Arctic ice minimum). Moreover data from the Antarctic glaciers show unexpected thinning.

The basic evidence for AGW continues to grow, as does the scientific consensus behind it.

stu said...

Sir James,

Incidentally, global warming alarmists seem to have trimmed their sails a bit after their dire predictions about a rapid rise in global temps proved unproved (no significant increase in nearly two decades).

I should know better than to not challenge your factual assertions immediately.

Take a look at BEST: Annual Land-Surface Average Temperature. This graph clearly shows an increase in the temperature anomaly on the order of 0.5º C over the past two decades, which is significant. More to the point, the "hockey stick" shows a secular increase in the temperature anomaly from 0.5º C/century prior to 1975, to roughly 1.5ºC/century after 1975.

Lessa N. Lessa said...

Sir stu, I'm not aware of a generally R-accepted proposal to privatise the whole SS system, though I remember Pres Bush II's suggestion that a small % might be set aside (5% perhaps) as a test programme some years ago (howled down by the Ds). Perhaps you have other evidence from the Rs' more recent proposals.

Your assertion that the Rs proposed eliminating Medicare "tout court" in favour of vouchers doesn't seem to accord with liberal D Sen Ron Wyden's policy paper proposals on Medicare that he worked on with Rep Ryan:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sen-ron-wyden/preserving-
the-medicare-g_b_1365237.html

JADL

Curtis Faville said...

Are women human?

Are men human?

Are children human?

If you answered in the affirmative, you have answered the question regarding abortion.

We voluntarily relegate millions of "human beings" every year to suffering, starvation, misery, disease, deprivation of every kind, and even death, as in wars. We all do this voluntarily. No one has clean hands.

The sperm and eggs of all living things, produced in overwhelming numbers, that never are united, are not sacred. The moment of conception is not a "miracle." It is a common occurrence throughout the animal kingdom. We meddle in the genetic processes of many living things, both fauna and flora.

Fetuses at conception are not human beings, but bits of DNA. Not human beings.

Like the decisions made to allow human beings to suffer and die, decisions regarding the viability of a fetus to be carried to term are serious, and morally complex. I don't regard a fetus--up to 5 months--to be a human being, with rights and privileges. To terminate a pregnancy is not an act of murder, but a decision which belongs to the mother (and when pertinent, the father).

One does not decide these things lightly. But the decision does not belong to the courts. Or to you.

Curtis Faville said...

Stu:

"The Republican idea that we ought to privatize Social Security cannot be characterized fairly as an effort to reduce the rate of increase of the size of federal government. The intent is a major downsizing. Likewise Republican efforts to eliminate Medicare in favor of a voucher system, which not only offloads a major federal responsibility, it sets the stage for future diminishment of the vouchers and a de facto exit. This is 43% of the Federal budget."

Properly, the Federal budget does not "include" Social Security and Medicare. It does include SSI, AFDC, Medicaid, School Assistance programs, law enforcement grants, etc.

When you pay your Social Security taxes, you are supporting an insurance system. To equate this payment (or tax) with the discretionary spending we support through Federal and State income and sales taxes is a misnomer. You can't cut Social Security to make up for discretionary over-spending, on, for instance, wars or disaster relief or Wall Street bail-outs. Social Security is a law, and the system under which it works is self-funded. That funding is not something you can tinker with, without simply scrapping its provisions and mandate.

Keep Social Security out of the budget discussions. It doesn't belong there.

Lessa N. Lessa said...

Sir stu, I'll have a look at the BEST land surface graphs in a bit and see how they stand with the other sources for monitoring global temps. Thanks for the link.

I focused on the "consensus" "argument" and found this shorter summary of a recent paper by climatologist Judith Curry (you'll recall, Chair of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at Georgia Tech). Among her comments on the damaging effect of the supposed "consensus" on AGW and what future actions to take:

"The manufactured consensus of the IPCC has had the unintended consequences of distorting the science, elevating the voices of scientists that dispute the consensus, and motivating actions by the consensus scientists and their supporters that have diminished the public’s trust in the IPCC.

[. . .]

Given the complexity of the climate problem, ‘expert judgments’ about uncertainty and confidence levels are made by the IPCC on issues that are dominated by unquantifiable uncertainties. It is difficult to avoid concluding that the IPCC consensus is manufactured and that the existence of this consensus does not lend intellectual substance to their conclusions.

The consensus approach being used by the IPCC has failed to produce a thorough portrayal of the complexities of the problem and the associated uncertainties in our understanding, in favor of spuriously constructed expert opinion. Further, concerns are being raised that the IPCC’s consensus claim is distorting the science itself, as scientists involved in the IPCC process consider the impact of their statements on the ability of the IPCC to defend its previous claims of consensus.

These efforts create temptations to make illegitimate attacks on scientists whose views do not align with the consensus, and to dismiss any disagreement as politically motivated ‘denialism’. The use of ‘denier’ to label anyone who disagrees with the IPCC consensus on attribution leads to concerns being raised about the IPCC being enforced as dogma, which is tied to how dissent is dealt with.

These efforts create temptations to make illegitimate attacks on scientists whose views do not align with the consensus, and to dismiss any disagreement as politically motivated ‘denialism’. The use of ‘denier’ to label anyone who disagrees with the IPCC consensus on attribution leads to concerns being raised about the IPCC being enforced as dogma, which is tied to how dissent is dealt with." (pt 1)

Lessa N. Lessa said...

Curry's comments finish with an appeal to abandon appeals to "consensus" in favour of open debate:

"Further, research from the field of science and technology studies are finding that manufacturing a consensus in the context of the IPCC has acted to hyper-politicize the scientific and policy debates, to the detriment of both. Arguments are increasingly being made to abandon the scientific consensus seeking approach in favor of open debate of the arguments themselves and discussion of a broad range of policy options that stimulate local and regional solutions to the multifaceted and interrelated issues of climate change, land use, resource management, cost effective clean energy solutions, and developing technologies to expand energy access efficiently."

http://judithcurry.com/2012/10/28/climate-change-no-consensus-on-consensus/

Lessa N. Lessa said...

Apologies for inadvertently doubling the ultimate paragraph above.

JADL

Kirby Olson said...

What counts as human is obviously always going to end up in the courts since it has legal repercussions whether it's the death of a vegetable or the death of the unborn. Catholics keep all human life sacred. We Lutherans have many splits. But obviously these things count. If someone fires a bullet into a woman's womb and kills the baby against her wishes, is that a murder, or a flesh wound, if it doesn't kill the woman? These are terrible questions, but they can't be left up to individuals. Otherwise you will get your Manson Family answers along with the others. Does every person's answer count equally? I think not.

Kirby Olson said...

JADL, have you looked into the data that suggests that Mars, Pluto, Jupiter and other planets are also warming? In about 2005 NGeo published an article about a Russian scientist who noticed the icecaps on Mars were disappearing and he suggested it was irradiation whatever that is, coming from the sun. He was roundly decried and shouted down by the usual crowd and Ngeo was castigated for making this research available to the hoi polloi. I just came across it last week and was amused. Are you familiar with it? Do you put any truck in it? I already know Stu's answer, but Stu, do use this as a rationale to employ the fiercest irony and put downs you can summon.

I'm glad to see you two are back at it.

JADL, I want to send you something. Are you still at the old addresse?

stu said...

Sir James,

I think that Curry's claim that the IPCC process has politicized the debate over AGW is laughable. The politicization has clearly come from commercial interests (specificially the fossil fuel industry) that is essentially blamed by mainstream science for changes in the earth's climate. Has this evoked a reaction among the IPCC participants? Most likely. But trying to dodge a scientific argument by replacing it with a sociological argument as Curry is doing is unlikely to advance the cause of science.

I do find it interesting to see that Curry's nailed her flag to the next five years. She's committed hereself one climate model that predicts no net change. Based on the past couple of decades, +0.1ºC is what I'd expect, and this should be detectable at the current state of the art. Hanson, if I understand correctly, argues for more like +0.2ºC, essentially arguing that we'll see a return back to the hockey-stick regression line. We'll see what another five years brings.

Lessa N. Lessa said...

Thanks Kirby. No, I haven't seen the report you mentioned, but I know there are a number of astrophysicists who've claimed that solar cycles and variations in solar activity account for more earth climate variations and trends than AGW alarmists are willing to admit.

Yes, we're still at the Commerce Street address in Ann Arbor (Emmy's sending it by email just to confirm). Thanks too for whatever you're sending.

stu said...

Kirby,

What counts as human is obviously always going to end up in the courts since it has legal repercussions whether it's the death of a vegetable or the death of the unborn. Catholics keep all human life sacred. We Lutherans have many splits. But obviously these things count. If someone fires a bullet into a woman's womb and kills the baby against her wishes, is that a murder, or a flesh wound, if it doesn't kill the woman? These are terrible questions, but they can't be left up to individuals. Otherwise you will get your Manson Family answers along with the others. Does every person's answer count equally? I think not.

It's an interesting question, and it seems to me that I come at this with fundamentally different philosophical commitments than you have, deeper indeed than the question of whether abortion is right or wrong.

It seems to me that there's a general consensus that a baby (as distinct from a fetus) is human, jokes about the development of humanity in one's 20's not withstanding. This consensus is less universal while the fetus is in utero, some believing that human life begins at conception, and indeed biblical texts go so far as to push it back to the germ cells, hence the prohibition against masturbation (cf., "spilling of seed").

But there are certainly many who are willing to assign a different beginning point.

For my part, I have no particularly deep problem with the notion that a fetus becomes human either at birth (when society as a whole acquires an interest), or at its mother's commitment prior to birth.

That this doesn't fit particularly well into our jurisprudence does not seem to me to be an argument against it. If violence to a woman causes miscarriage, and the woman believes herself to be carrying her child, then it's murder, whether the fetus is in it's first or last week of gestation. This bothers us because we don't like the possible criminality of our actions to be a function of how others perceive our actions, but I can certainly find parallels in the law (cf., possession of burglery tools).

jh said...

an embryo a fetus
'tis a being
'tis no other sort of being
what sort of being is it
'tis a being begot by human beings and therefor human
not fully developed
but neither am i

potentia gives way to acta
continually

the miracle is in the ordinary

jh

Curtis Faville said...

The Catholic Church has traditionally argued that the point of conception is a sacred moment.

I think the reason the church takes this position is that it believes it has a holy investment (or a right of possession and jurisdiction) over the fetus. Since conception (or intercourse) is what the church sanctifies marriage for, the moment of conception is crucial to its authority.

But now we have in vitro fertilization, which more or less makes the sexual act irrelevant. If women don't need "husbands" to make babies, then the contractual relationship which binds men and women together is no longer the church's business, unless you consider any kind of marriage a sanctified act.

I'm of the opinion that conception is the business of the parents, or parent. If they choose to terminate a pregnancy they've created, society shouldn't intervene. The fetus is neither the property nor the ward of the state. It cannot claim a right that has never been so defined in history--at least to my knowledge. "The rights of the unborn" is nonsense.

Curtis Faville said...

Whatever the evidence eventually "proves" about the causes of global warming, we can quantify the outcomes with some accuracy.

The warming of the oceans and the increase in mean temperatures around the earth will have catastrophic consequences in the long run.

Whether this can be attributed to solar cycles or the combustion of fossil fuels, or some combination of the two, may remain under dispute for some time.

There's no dispute that warming is occurring. The ice-caps are melting away. We have no precedent for this in recorded history.

What does seem clear is that the over-exploitation of resource is imprudent, given what we know about an over-dependence upon limited stocks. If it turns out that burning petroleum and natural gas and wood and coal wasn't as crucial to the progress of warming as we suspected, that still doesn't argue for an all out consumption model.

We need to reduce population and cut back on resource use, whatever is causing global warming. And if it is causing it, our best option is even more persuasive.

Lessa N. Lessa said...

Sir stu, I see Curry's paper as an attempt to disentangle the scientific aspects of the AGW debate from the contentious political, personal, and policy aspects of the debate.

Though written from an apparent warmist perspective, the wiki entry for the "hockey-stick" controversy shows how all these aspects have increasingly been bound together in for the past two decades--making for a kind of "tree-ring circus" if you will. I've yet to read Simon Montford's "The Hockey Stick Illusion: Climategate and the Corruption of Science" (2010)--praised and recommended by Curry--but I hope to get to it sometime soon.

At any rate, Pres Obama missed Hansen's boat, for the latter stated it'd be too late to avoid the "tipping point" if he didn't take drastic action to curb AGW during his first term. . . . And then one country after another has ignored the warmist Sirens and Kyoto protocols in the interests of protecting their economies.

Another comment in the UK "Daily Mail" from Curry on the recent news release by the UK Met Office and the Climate Research Unit of East Anglia U that there's been no significant increase in GW in 16 years:

"Another critic said that climate expert Professor Judith Curry had protested at the way she was represented in our report. However, Professor Curry, a former US National Research Council Climate Research Committee member and the author of more than 190 peer-reviewed papers, responded:

'A note to defenders of the idea that the planet has been warming for the past 16 years. Raise the level of your game. Nothing in the Met Office’s statement .  .  . effectively refutes Mr Rose’s argument that there has been no increase in the global average surface temperature for the past 16 years.

Use this as an opportunity to communicate honestly with the public about what we know and what we don’t know about climate change. Take a lesson from other scientists who acknowledge the “pause”.’

The Met Office now confirms on its climate blog that no significant warming has occurred recently: ‘We agree with Mr Rose that there has only been a very small amount of warming in the 21st Century.’"

JADL

Kirby Olson said...

OBL said he sought out Marxist professors. To me Marxism.is as bad as Nazism.Both are totally evil. I do have some Marxist friends and one Nazi friend. I think they are deluded. Equally.

I don't care what people think but if they are in power and are using a bad paradigm we're in trouble. Has BO ever distanced himself from the Marxist tradition?

stu said...

Kirby,

OBL said he sought out Marxist professors.

I believe you meant BHO. Weird faux pas. Anyway, I'd chalk that up to the stupid things kids do in college. Heaven's knows I did a few. I know from your writings that you did. We changed. He changed. The real question is whether or not he's seeking out Marxist professors today. I doubt very much that he is.

The attraction of Marxism for a college student in the 70's or 80's is pretty clear. They had a critique of (then) modern society that was interesting, lively, provocative, and despised by the Nixons and Reagans of the world. They said they had all of the answers. They certainly had enough jargon to fill any number of books.

There are strengths and weaknesses of Marxism. Their ability to diagnose the problems of capitalism always far exceeded their ability to find solutions to those problems. They built an intellectual framework that began with a spare elegance and energy, but soon turned inward, and became baroque and self absorbed. And they fell so in love with their theories that their preferred method for dealing with disagreements between theory and reality was to assume that reality itself was in error.

Let me point out that this critique applies with equal force to the contemporary libertarian/tea-party movement. It too has fallen so in love with its theories that it prefers them to reality. Different riders, same whip.

And one of the differences that I see between Obama and you is that he took from the Marxists what they had that was good and true (their criticisms of contemporary society), but rejected the rest. He's moved in the direction of pragmatic policies, and accepts the real world as a constrain on theorizing. But you have not.

Kirby Olson said...

AGW is it another such theory?

stu said...

No, I don't think so. As a general rule, the climate models have shown less than the observed warming. The implication has always been that the models are inadequate, not that the earth is responding incorrectly.

jh said...

curtis

the church has upheld the principle
of the sanctity of human life all human life from beginning to end of this worldy life...and beyond...as sacred...and will continue to do so

the church ratified this principle based on the understanding and practices of civilized people...the jewish notion carried over into christian practice...man's distinction his kadesh is determined by the early understanding of the ones - made in the image and likeness of god
...and this principle informed christian and jewish philosophical commentary on human nature right into the 20th century...and continues beleaguered

the christian understanding of marriage is a religious honoring of what all peoples of the earth have considered right and just in regards to marriage...albeit with grandiose exaggerations where polygamy and power-families held forth

the sacrament is fundamentally the honoring of the union...be that as it may...offspring being natural and a motivating principle within the institution...thus the sanctity of the union becomes a context whereby human life can come forth with dignity and good health...an assurance of the basics required for life in its nascency...the rights of the unborn are basic human rights...not lockean per se

two sacred and sanctified people unite in marriage and bring forth
children who a rendered sacred by virtue of being human

modern science has proven that conception and the first few days are in the realm of the ordinary miraculous

once managers begin to dictate the possibility of reproduction it's all over but the cryin'

i can see that you judge the catholic book by its cover
you'd do well to read some of the pages
and least peruse the table of contents

there are no such things as
reproductive rights
only responsiblities

human rights
are essentially non-negotiable

how is it that a third trimester abortion is merely a sad mishap...
and throwing a newborn over the golden gate bridge is murder?

manslaughter

it may be distasteful reading for you curtis but you could google
HUMANAE VITAE for a good foundational overview of catholic moral teaching on human life

amen

jh

Curtis Faville said...

Stu:

"I'd chalk that up to the stupid things kids do in college. Heaven's knows I did a few. I know from your writings that you did."

This is a reminder of something that Kirby tends to "forget" in his thinking, i.e., that he himself could not have had the first-hand experience of the infection of the humanities by Marxist tendencies, without having possessed some sympathetic leanings, or at least some curious naivité about it in the first instance. Obama's curiosities lay in the direction of the social contract, whereas someone like the young Romney was looking for ways to justify his privileged background.

"The attraction of Marxism for a college student in the 70's or 80's is pretty clear."

Orwell says somewhere that Marxist thinking is the most natural political tendency in the adolescent mind. He regarded that almost as a requirement of intellectual decency. That is part of the attraction of Marxist thinking, that it appears to address the evils of capitalism, while not offering any reasonable solutions. I think Orwell, to follow the case, was a lapsed socialist, who saw the dangers in the early examples of socialist dictatorships. In the early post-War world of Britain, the Labour Party's dominance must be seen in the context of that hangover. It took almost two generations for that hangover to "wear off"--which is how French and German Marxist thinking made its way into America, and became--as you observe--an "interesting, lively, provocative" diversion. European Marxism became an academic indulgence, as you note again, turning "inward . . . self-absorbed." However, there were refinements, mostly intellectual in my view, that carried the theory far beyond what Marx had originally imagined, or could have anticipated. But you're quite right, that the disagreements usually occurred in the application(s) of theory to reality.

I don't think you can award the so-called Tea Party any points for intellectual rigor. It's more like the Occupy Wall Street movement than any kind of politically informed faction. Its influence is fading, and is likely to disappear by the end of Obama's second term. It's a fringe phenomenon.

Most of Obama's policies derive from European socialism (France, Germany, Scandinavia), and aren't associated with Russian or Chinese Communism. Kirby knows this perfectly well, but prefers to mislabel and mis-identify liberals and liberal movements in America with the failed totalitarian "experiments" of the 20th Century. Marxism, as such, died in America. The McCarthy era, in retrospect, was just beating a dead horse.

Curtis Faville said...

jh:

I don't think you offer any convincing objections to my remarks about Catholic dogma regarding contraception and the sanctity of "human life."

Abortion only became a public issue when advanced medicine addressed the issue and offered a practical alternative to the traditions of amateur "operations" and persecutions of women common throughout history. It saw its authority challenged, and moved to incorporate prejudices and prohibitions into its doctrine. Ultimately, this has hurt its base and kept it irrelevant in the modern world.

If there are no reproductive rights, then no man or woman is free to engage in any sex act that is not sanctioned by religion. I find that Medieval in its implications.

We're in agreement about the preference for traditional nuclear family arrangements being the basis for a healthy child-rearing. The other side of that coin is an acknowledgement of the need to plan for children, instead of regarding their conception as a "miracle" beyond the limits of control and preparation.

BTW, I'd appreciate it if you didn't use the phrase "in regards to"--which is not English. In regard to is fine, but "regards" isn't.

Also, Stu's use of the "any number of" is also ungrammatical. It's a meaningless phrase. A number is fine, but "any" has no limit, and no meaning whatsoever.

Brett said...

Curtis - "any number of" most definitely has a meaning...

It means - 'you give me a number of books. I'll give you enough jargon to fill them all.'

It's a challenge.

Of course, it's a challenge in a turn of phrase meant to do nothing more than point out that 'them Marxists gots a lot of jargon.'

It is not meaningless. If you think it is, that's your fault, not Stu's.

I mean - you give it a meaning! You say 'it has no limit,' which is precisely the meaning that Stu wanted to impart.

You should probably drink some water. You don't sound well-hydrated.

Now, with regards to your protestation of in regards to, I gotta send my regards to you, since 'a healthy child-rearing' is at best awkward and at worst ungrammatical. (meaning, no one's perfect, EVEN YOU, so stop being an arse about things that don't matter. It's unbecoming. Grammar Nazis are, like, so five years ago).

Irregardless of your protestations, ain't nothing gonna break my stride. Nobody's gonna slow me down.

Brett said...

Curtis - "any number of" most definitely has a meaning...

It means - 'you give me a number of books. I'll give you enough jargon to fill them all.'

It's a challenge.

Of course, it's a challenge in a turn of phrase meant to do nothing more than point out that 'them Marxists gots a lot of jargon.'

It is not meaningless. If you think it is, that's your fault, not Stu's.

I mean - you give it a meaning! You say 'it has no limit,' which is precisely the meaning that Stu wanted to impart.

You should probably drink some water. You don't sound well-hydrated.

Now, with regards to your protestation of in regards to, I gotta send my regards to you, since 'a healthy child-rearing' is at best awkward and at worst ungrammatical. (meaning, no one's perfect, EVEN YOU, so stop being an arse about things that don't matter. It's unbecoming. Grammar Nazis are, like, so five years ago).

Irregardless of your protestations, ain't nothing gonna break my stride. Nobody's gonna slow me down.

Kirby Olson said...

I first read Orwell when I was fifteen. I loved him and found his analysis of Marxist society to be spot on. He remained a Trotskyite associated with the Labor Party. His experience in Spain when he was with the amarchists was his eye opener. Stalinists turned the anarchists and tore them to pieces. Surrealism was what attracted me in college. I always saw the politicos as rivals and ver tough to counter. I hadnto.read thousands of pages of Marx Stalin Trotsky to be able to counter their sophisticated but unbalanced thought. I was never.drawn to them. They were like bears blocking the salmon run. To get home I had to get past them. I was always also.drawn to the church. It was only in Finland that I began to put the two together. Finnish "socialism" is Lutheranism not Marxism. This is a huge difference. I'm on the Kindle and can't write a lot as I have to go over to Cooperstown Hospital in a few minutes. Only Marxism.could pave the highways.of Siberia with human skeletons. Stalin realized bones are stronger than concrete and realized he had millions of skeletons to use. He was a materialist. No Lutheran could think like that about human beings.

stu said...

Sir James,

I'm not aware of a generally R-accepted proposal to privatise the whole SS system, though I remember Pres Bush II's suggestion that a small % might be set aside (5% perhaps) as a test programme some years ago (howled down by the Ds). Perhaps you have other evidence from the Rs' more recent proposals.

"Generally R-accepted" is the key weasel phrase above.

Ron Paul has repeated claimed that Social Security is unconstitutional, and he criticizes it in language (i.e., Ponzi scheme) that Emmy if not you has been known to repeat here. So I assume his views are familiar to you. Rick Santorum is on the record as supporting "voluntary" privatization, and private retirement accounts. Michelle Bachmann stated that it was necessary to "wean people off" of Social Security and Medicare. Paul Ryan sponsored a bill in response to GWB's proposal to allow workers to put 50% (not 5%) of their contributions into a private account. I could go on.

I could go on. You're right that there's no one proposal. Indeed, with the exception of Ryan-Sununu Bill, nothing here is concrete enough to constitute a proposal in a meaningful sense. Instead, what we have are more general statements of policy from which specific proposals will doubtless arise, once there's enough political support to give them some chance of advancing. But I think there's enough here of commonality in the general policy statements that Republican leaders have been making over many years to justify my claims about Republican goals.

Your assertion that the Rs proposed eliminating Medicare "tout court" in favour of vouchers doesn't seem to accord with liberal D Sen Ron Wyden's policy paper proposals on Medicare that he worked on with Rep Ryan

Perhaps not. But I was thinking of Ryan's "Path to Prosperity," where this specific proposal is made.

jh said...

one objection i offer curtis is

you can look far and wide in catholic moral teaching and find nothing that indicates a "sacred moment" of conception

the moment is not sacred
the being is

the church's reaction to medical advances in reproductive medicine is consistent with an ethic which upholds the sanctity of life down through the ages (in this regard one can view burning at the stake as a form of advanced sanctification) ;)

a rather odd set of circumstances - when the technology developed to actually gain photographic views of the stages of impregnation and fetal development there developed a quiet insistence amid scientists of faith that the church's teaching were not only right but prophetic...of course the humanists scoffed

if women are free to abort at will
all human life is compromised

bringing children into the world is not merely a private consideration but largely one with huge public implications

feminism has yet to step up and acknowledge the moral devastation of the irrational impetus to grant a right to murder innocent humans...let me see...when has that happened before

the medical advances which made for "safe" abortions ( what an oxymoron ) were developed in nazi germany and were found to be one of the good things that came out of that social experiment

if there is no god, everything is permissible - fyodor dostoevsky

i'm always amazed that people put abortion and contraception into the category of freedom

we must learn the theology of the body

amen

blah blah blah

Craig said...

My wife and I spent our honeymoon camping out in Banff and Jasper. It was fun. We saw our first wild animal just inside the gate, a black bear cub in a meadow about fifty yards from the road with a steady stream of RVs and campers coming and going through the entrance. We stopped to get out and look and to take a picture of it scratching its butt on a small tree, but we didn't leave the car as there were signs every fifty feet or so saying don't hassle the wildlife. After we saw the cub lots of other people saw it too and many of them got out of their cars and converged on it on foot with their cameras to see if it would pose for a close-up. Those folks were crazy. The cub was just young enough to where you knew its mother had to be close enough by to make a dramatic entrance at any moment. So we didn't stay to watch.

We found a tent ground and bought a ticket to reserve a spot and for access to the bathhouse, then we drove around for awhile. We saw a variety of deer and elk and then at dusk we saw a bull moose grazing just a few feet from the roadway. We didn't get a good look at it because we were almost past it before we spotted it's dark coat and velvety horns silhouetted in the sunset's last gasp. Half a mile up the road we decided to turn around to get a better look at it on the way back to the campsite, but by then it had disappeared into the woods.

When I was in sixth grade the town where I lived has since become the official entrance to the North Cascades National Park. A moose wandered into town one weekend across the Skagit River bridge and made itself at home in the town's main business district for several days. The state wildlife authorities were called when it showed no inclination to leave. They brought in a crew with a big truck and a few too many tranquilizer darts. A television news team from Seattle came up to record the action. They got it into the truck with a plan for relocation, but it died from an overdose.

G. M. Palmer said...

Stu

to be fair to RP he also stated that it would be unconscionable to cut folks off from Social Security and Medicare and that it needed to be restructured for folks who were not already dependent upon it.

Curtis Faville said...

Brett:

The question of grammar--as with spelling--isn't a simple one.

We know that language must accommodate both strictness and flexibility.

We know that language changes over time, but we also know that written language needs to adhere enough to certain rules that its sense can be followed.

The invention of moveable type in the West had a revolutionary effect on grammar and spelling, and led to the publication of grammars and dictionaries, which tend to fix rules and practice.

Personally, I tend to favor neologisms and coinages which are deliberate and ingenious, and to resist those that occur out of ignorance or laziness.

"In regards to" is ignorance. It adds nothing to the language, and merely exposes one's error. "Any number of" is a sloppy invention which actually has no meaning whatsoever. People will say "any number of" something, as a kind of emphasis, but since the actual number is unspecified, it could mean 2, or 5, or ten million. If you mean many, you should say many. If you mean a few, you should say a few. At least those distinctions point in one direction or another. "Any number of" doesn't signify anything.

stu said...

GM,

to be fair to RP he also stated that it would be unconscionable to cut folks off from Social Security and Medicare and that it needed to be restructured for folks who were not already dependent upon it.

Sure. All of these plans envision a transitional process, albeit a dishonest one. The point here is that all of the plans that I've heard involve a cutoff -- 55 or 60 depending on the planner. The folks who have reached the magical qualification age retain benefits under the old plan (although how those benefits are to be paid once that plan goes bankrupt seems never to be part of the conversation), and folks under the age cutoff are under the new plan.

The cheat here is that the retirement contributions that matter most in a defined contribution plan (and that's what we're talking about here) are the early contributions. If you're in your 40's or old, and get pulled from a defined benefit plan to a defined contribution plan, you're screwed because you never made the contributions in your 20's and 30's that ultimately form the preponderance of value in a defined contribution plan.

stu said...

Curtis,

"Any number of" doesn't signify anything.

With respect, you are mistaken. It is a colloquialism, albeit one that you may be unfamiliar with.

In any event, you're making the classical mistake of assuming that grammar is normative. In reality, grammar represents a hypothesis concerning the structure of a natural language, as spoken by fluent native speakers thereof. Like the Marxists, you are encountering a disagreement between theory and observation, and insisting that the theory is right. The observed is not impressed.

Curtis Faville said...

Stu:

This is an interesting question, and one you apparently have thought about yourself.

My point isn't that "in regards to" or "any number of" will not someday find their way into grammars and dictionaries, but that there is a morality of the descent of language.

A few years ago, there were some grammarians who actually proposed that we divide English into sub categories. One such category was "Black English"--or, the English spoken in African American ghettos. There have always been such dialects, created through geographical isolation.

It would be possible today to divide language into a number of different dialects, based merely on the kind of slang-invention that takes place among communities of people who are under-educated, in an otherwise homogeneous community of speakers.

There are levels of proficiency in language. Obviously, one of the measures of one's education is the degree to which one adheres to accepted definitions of sense. Everyone can't simply invent their own language; that way chaos lies.

In a sense, language both does and does not "belong" to people. Once a sense is established, it perseveres until it is either abandoned, or changed. But the basis for new change shouldn't just be that people were too stupid, or disrespectful, or lazy to get it right. It should evolve out of useful necessity.

This is a moral point of view, born of a devotion to the power of words to communicate, to communicate effectively. Good and great writers, and speakers, exercise and train and husband language into new territory. They earn the right to tamper with it, because they are familiar with its foundations.

If anyone gets to foul language up, to misuse it or run roughshod over it, they ought at least to be aware of the degree of their error. You, for instance, would not credit wrong mathematical equations as some kind of new version of the language of math. Of course, you will argue that mathematical languages aren't the same as spoken language, but you expect and demand that language do the same heavy lifting and delicate manipulations that you want the language of physics to do.

Try to tell someone who grew up in a ghetto with a 3rd grade education what makes Schopenhauer interesting. The ghetto dweller isn't stupid, he just doesn't have the language you do. His works very well for him--it's subtle and powerful and various. But to claim that there is no value in preserving what the language has meant, and can do, is really backward.

Curtis Faville said...

Stu:

And while we're at it, please do give me a definition of "any number of"--one that we could both agree on, that is accurate and commonly accepted.

stu said...

Curtis,

You do mean to press. OK, I'm game.

I believe I'm using language in a more complex way that you're understanding. You're taking the position that I'm an educated person, a professor, and that therefore I should be wearing the uniform of scholarly speech.

That's not the game I play. I tend to speak a bit informally and dress informally. My experience as a teacher is that this informality helps my students relax, and eases their active participation in the classroom. Please understand that I expect much more from my students than mere mastery of a body of material -- I'm looking for creative intellectual involvement. These habits carry over to this venue.

Any number of == surprisingly many.

stu said...

GM,

Just for jollies, I wrote a bit of code to flesh-out my claims regarding the relative importance of early years in a defined contribution pension plan.

So let me first note the assumptions I'm making. I'm assuming a defined contribution plan, i.e., one in which the employee (and or employer) puts a constant fraction of the employee's income into the plan each year.

I assume an annual rate of inflation of 3.85%, which is derived by taking the CPIs for October 1956 and December 2012, and performing the appropriate calculation. Why October 1956? It's my birth month, and I'm an ego-centric SOB.

I assume a return on investments of 9.2%, which I got from an article that was clever enough to consider both dividends and share-price growth for international stock markets over the period from 1900 to 2000. (The US number is a skosh better).

I assume that pension contributions begin at 25, continue through age 65. Using data on median income by age, I assume that compensation will increase by 1.3%/year over inflation from age 25 until the "bend year" of 50, and that it will decrease by 1% over inflation subsequently.

Based on these assumptions, I computed the fraction of the final pension that is attributable to the contributions made in 5-year wide windows from ages 25 through 64:

25-29: 22.4%
30-34: 18.6%
35-39: 15.4%
40-44: 12.8%
45-49: 10.6%
50-54: 8.4%
55-59: 6.2%
60-64: 4.6%
65-65: 0.8%

Now, consider what this means to a 40 year old, a person only 15 years into a 40 year career, if the Paul plan goes through. Because they've missed the contributions from ages 25-39, their pension will be only 44.6% of what it "should" be, assuming the base plan is not over-funded. He's screwed, and screwed pretty badly. Run that same calculation for a 50 year old, and he's getting only 20% of what he needs. Didn't Ron mention this?

I should note that the basic message here is *not* particularly parameter dependent. As long as the effective ROI (i.e., corrected for inflation) is larger than effective raise rate, the value of pension contributions decreases monotonically with age. Anyway, since this *is* code, I can easily run other numbers.

Curtis Faville said...

Stu:

I would disagree with you about your definition.

I think if we asked, say, ten people what "any number of" means, you'd get as many different answers.

When I first heard people use "any number of" I tried to figure out HOW MANY they were referring to. The more I thought about it, the more vague it seemed.

It apparently is a bastardization of "any number" can play--meaning, literally, ANY number, from 1 to a hundred or more.

If someone says "any number of people," how many people are we talking about? Speakers will say "you could ask any number of people" but they're really just saying "any group of people" or "a number of people." The addition of "any" is entirely vague, and doesn't quantify the number. "A number" of things could mean just one, or more than one. But "any number" is ambiguous; it could refer to one of a set, or to a subset of a larger set (speaking in arithmetical terms).

In a way, it's the same error as the false comparison of "he's better than any quarterback at throwing touchdowns." But what the speaker means is "better than any OTHER quarterback," since the quarterback in question belongs to the set of "any" (i.e., all) quarterbacks being compared to each other.

You could canvas "any number" of people about the meaning of "any number" and you wouldn't get a firm definition, because there is none. It's a grammatical error that has crept into the language and is proving stubbornly persistent.

When vague and imprecise words become accepted, the language suffers. People lose track of what they're trying to say. Since "any number" doesn't make sense, people end up using sloppy language to say something specific, and they fail.

It isn't communication, it's like singing. What do songs mean?

Obviously, we all use common speech, but some people strive to maintain a standard. Others do not. In college, teachers ought, it seems to me, to fall on the side of standards, rather than dumbing themselves down to the level of their students. Truly creative people aren't sloppy people, intellectually.

At least, in my experience, smart people didn't speak badly. They were well-spoken, but took those standards as the external law. They were able to see through the ironies of accepted practice, to live in the world of exchange without losing their own identity, and their inherent skepticism. I think you're obviously one of those people. But a lot of people aren't, and they end up thinking that it doesn't matter, that sloppy language and sloppy thinking are both permissible, as a justification of their own laziness and lack of focus.

Part of what a liberal humanist education is designed to do, is to teach people that precision and accuracy do matter, and that language/languages are delicate and powerful instruments that have a purpose, and should be treated with respect, and that there is a moral value to using them well, and effectively.

Pretending that there are no rules, or that the rules never need to be followed, is a counterfeit of truth.

I also believe, as do many people, that imprecise language can be used to delude and deceive. Controlling debates in the political realm is often about creating a context of understanding in which lies and half-truths can be circulated, insinuated into discussion surreptitiously. Controlling debate is what political speech writers do all the time, framing discussion in ways that pre-figure derived conclusions.

stu said...

Curtis,

When I first heard people use "any number of" I tried to figure out HOW MANY they were referring to. The more I thought about it, the more vague it seemed.

Seriously? When people say "many," do you object because it's vague? That a word is vague is no argument against its use. Vague concepts require vague words for precise communication. Using a more precise word might in fact constitute a less precise communication, because it would convey to the reader a level of precision that's not intended, and indeed as in this case, may not even be available to the speaker/writer.

In college, teachers ought, it seems to me, to fall on the side of standards, rather than dumbing themselves down to the level of their students.

Informal ≠ Dumbing down. If you're in a very formal discipline, as I am, you either learn to titrate formality or you go mad. I've chosen the former.

Pretending that there are no rules, or that the rules never need to be followed, is a counterfeit of truth.

This, it seems to me, is a grossly disproportionate accusation. I am using rules, just not exactly the rules you prefer.

I also believe, as do many people, that imprecise language can be used to delude and deceive.

Again, in the current context, I consider this to be a grossly disproportionate accusation.

In the meantime, don't let me get in the way of your program of squeezing all the color out of language. But don't expect me to jump on your bandwagon, either.

Curtis Faville said...

Stu

I'm all about contexts.

I'm a poet, and (as Kirby never misses the chance to announce) not a very good one (apparently). I value all kinds of language.

You seem to feel I'm attacking you, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Or that I'm attacking vague language as having no use.

Not at all.

I'm simply saying that the creative misuse of language is of more value than the lazy, accidental misuse.

None of us can decide what will or will not pass through the gates of acceptable language. Words and phrases and syntactical constructions have a life of their own, and are obviously too obstinate to be shouted down by the likes of me.

With respect to the phrases I've cited, they're in the limbo of not yet having been accepted. Some neologism die a quiet death, others hang on for centuries. I'm not disputing this possibility. And I'm not arguing against creative language. I am arguing against deliberate misuse, as if it were a cute pastime, or a way of tearing down tradition.

Poetry--avant garde poetry--is an aesthetic, deliberte manipulation of language for artistic ends. This is not the same thing as African Americans deliberately abusing the "white man's tongue" in order to deconstruct its power.

stu said...

Curtis,

I'm simply saying that the creative misuse of language is of more value than the lazy, accidental misuse.

Sure. No argument there.

But I think your particular battle against "any number of" is a bit misguided. Colloquialisms like this often convey idiomatic nuances, and "any number of" does, at least in my experience, of an exasperation at a habitual perversity. Is it ever nor spoken as a sigh? It's a bit hard to see how to get at this in formal speech without being prolix. The most obvious concise alternative uses the habitual tense of eubonics: "They be making new words, jes' to please theyself." Somehow, I doubt you'd find that less objectionable. Indeed, some might find it racist, as if the intent is to denegrate its speakers rather than to invoke novel features of its tense system.

Lessa N. Lessa said...

Thanks to stu for his chart on the "Paul plan," though I'd hardly refer to a sui generis (now former) congressman like Ron Paul as a Republican "leader."

In light of Kirby's remarks on Marxism, I too never succumbed to the Marxist delusion as a student, however fashionable it waxed on campuses. On a personal level then, I guess I didn't cultivate the resentment, alienation, narcissism, and adolescent sense of self-worth to be suitably enough attracted to "theoretical Marxism." Not sure to what extent the lingering effects of his student or "activist" past Pres Obama still harbours. My own "culte du moi" took the contrarian shape of a love for the best in the past along with a healthy respect for throne and altar.

After the change in Marxist governments in Eastern Europe (where it took decades for fiendishly oppressive genocidal regimes slowly to dissolve into mere corrupt and oppressive gangster regimes before the change), I suspected self-styled "theoretical" or "Platonic" Marxists in the West (never in short supply at Western unis) would be relieved of their obligation to disassociate themselves in varying degrees (tho' often disingenuously) from the nightmarish world-historical evil Marxism visited upon untold millions. Some of these "Platonic" Marxists at unis found consolation in distinguishing between Marxist "analysis" and Marxist "political action," which allowed them the precious asset of professing Marxist principles as well as critiques of capitalism and of individual liberties while relishing their free haut bourgeois lives and (often enough) preening status as mentors of the young.

JADL

stu said...

Sir James,

Thanks to stu for his chart on the "Paul plan," though I'd hardly refer to a sui generis (now former) congressman like Ron Paul as a Republican "leader."

You're welcome, although the implications of that chart are hardly restricted to Ron Paul's particular proposal. Anyway, Ron's retirement may prove to be ephemeral. If you visit his 2012 Presidential campaign website, you'll find the claim that Paul would have beaten Obama if only the GOP establishment hadn't cheated him out of the nomination, along with the opportunity to contribute to his 2016 Presidential campaign.

But circling back around, these calculations apply with equal force to anyone's Social Security cutoff plans. Indeed, the same calculations apply to Medicare, which has a similar funding scheme. Cold changeovers imperil the viability of the current plan for its continuing participants, and greatly reduce benefits for those who are forced to change plans mid-career. The arithmetic is unforgiving.

In light of Kirby's remarks on Marxism, I too never succumbed to the Marxist delusion as a student, however fashionable it waxed on campuses.

Not a big surprise. You were a vet at that point, right? A few crucial years older, and with a very different set of life-experiences than a typical undergraduate. Your experiences framed communists as enemies, in the most literal kill-or-be-killed sense of the word.

On a personal level then, I guess I didn't cultivate the resentment, alienation, narcissism, and adolescent sense of self-worth to be suitably enough attracted to "theoretical Marxism."

Now you're being silly. Their ideological bretheren fired guns at you with the intent of doing severe bodily harm, or at least would have given the opportunity (your self revelations have thus far stopped shy of actual combat experiences, AFAIK). That's all the reason you, or pretty much anyone, would need to reject their views. Dressing this up as something that it wasn't doesn't help your credibility.

Not sure to what extent the lingering effects of his student or "activist" past Pres Obama still harbours.

I don't doubt that his experiences as a community organizer remain more formative and predictive of his present values and approaches than any college-age firtation with Marxist critique.

Kirby Olson said...

As kids we were ensconced in the rhetoric of the Cold War. When Reagan called the Soviet Union the "evil empire" it was as if at last someone just said it. I never once thought that anyone would go for Marxism. I was stunned to find Marxists in undergrad and grad school. I ended up friendly with many of them, and never turned any of them around. I could never understand why some people thought that Vietnam didn't need to be fought for. It all seemed so crazy. Did James need actual bullets sent at his head to "get it"?

Aren't ideas at least as tangible as bullets?

Why anyone would ever flirt with Marxism is beyond me. It's as bad as that lady in Delaware flirting with Satanism or Wicca as it's now called.

Didn't people read Solzhenitsyn, or about Pol Pot? I always read about the poets caught up in Marxism and the theologians who were getting killed all over the East Bloc. This was in church circulars of the period and in Reader's Digest.

Apparently some houses didn't get this stuff.

Orwell was more than enough for me. I didn't need the bad people to shoot at me to understand that they were bad people with a bad project.

Kirby Olson said...

I still have very strong allegiances to my childhood ideals: poetry and the church. I don't know why Obama would be different.

I did try drinking once.

But I didn't go to college to drink.

I did try smoking pot.

I inhaled.

But I realize it would defeat the whole purpose of learning anything.

I doubt if people are attracted to an ideal that they later wholeheartedly abandon. I was interested in surrealism even as a teen even in Dr. Suess and the Disney cartoons I first saw. I never got tired of it.

Are there really people who wholeheartedly abandon their youthful pursuits?

Once a communist always a communist.

Lessa N. Lessa said...

Sir stu, I'd have to rank the claim that Paul would have beaten Pres Obama had the former been nominated this last election cycle even more fanciful than the claim he's a Republican "leader." He's certainly a man of strong convictions and accomplishments, though the major news media bien-pensants would've gleefully portrayed him as if he were in buckskins, with raccoon cap and musket, manning the walls of the ruins of the Alamo. . . .

In answer to your question, I was actually a twenty-year college grad ineligible for the draft because of flat feet and terribly myopic vision, but after graduation I volunteered and was accepted into Army service. Thought I owed it--still do. It also fit well with my contrarian nature.

My strong aversion to theoretical and practical Marxism doesn't mean the writings of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, etc shouldn't be studied above all to be understood. Marx was first a failure at practical revolution before retreating to the theoretical, but the persuasive and pervasive nature of his writings, conceptual clunkers of his like the labour theory of value and all, deserve attention as part of a liberal arts education. It's just when theoretical Marxist positions are privileged to analyse and judge all others I object, particularly in humanities education. I might add that I think your point about Marx being long on critiques of capitalism but short on viable solutions apt.

JADL

Lessa N. Lessa said...

Sir stu, I'd have to rank the claim that Paul would have beaten Pres Obama had the former been nominated this last election cycle even more fanciful than the claim he's a Republican "leader." He's certainly a man of strong convictions and accomplishments, though the major news media bien-pensants would've gleefully portrayed him as if he were in buckskins, with raccoon cap and musket, manning the walls of the ruins of the Alamo. . . .

In answer to your question, I was actually a twenty-year college grad ineligible for the draft because of flat feet and terribly myopic vision, but after graduation I volunteered and was accepted into Army service. Thought I owed it--still do. It also fit well with my contrarian nature.

My strong aversion to theoretical and practical Marxism doesn't mean the writings of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, etc shouldn't be studied above all to be understood. Marx was first a failure at practical revolution before retreating to the theoretical, but the persuasive and pervasive nature of his writings, conceptual clunkers of his like the labour theory of value and all, deserve attention as part of a liberal arts education. It's just when theoretical Marxist positions are privileged to analyse and judge all others I object, particularly in humanities education. I might add that I think your point about Marx being long on critiques of capitalism but short on viable solutions apt.

JADL

stu said...

Sir James,

I'd have to rank the claim that Paul would have beaten Pres Obama had the former been nominated this last election cycle even more fanciful than the claim he's a Republican "leader."

I can only agree. I think Romney was the best candidate available to the Republicans this cycle, at least as measured by fraction of vote gathered in the general election. But Paul is not unique among Romney's former opponents in believing that they'd have beaten Obama in the general, given the chance.

In answer to your question, I was actually a twenty-year college grad ineligible for the draft because of flat feet and terribly myopic vision, but after graduation I volunteered and was accepted into Army service. Thought I owed it--still do. It also fit well with my contrarian nature.

Ah, interesting. So I have the relevant chronology reversed? I'll try to remember that. A college grad at 20 is impressive. But you entered the service as a soldier and not an officer? Unusual, but not unheard of. Similar in spirit to Chuck Hagel.

My strong aversion to theoretical and practical Marxism doesn't mean the writings of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, etc shouldn't be studied above all to be understood. Marx was first a failure at practical revolution before retreating to the theoretical, but the persuasive and pervasive nature of his writings, conceptual clunkers of his like the labour theory of value and all, deserve attention as part of a liberal arts education.

I took a Philosophy of Marx course as an undergraduate, mostly out of curiosity. Actually, I took it twice, as this was the only college course I failed :-/. Anyway, I found Engels' writing to be crisp and inspiring, but Das Kapital was without a doubt some of the most turgid writing I've ever encountered. It was not an experience that recommended Marxism at all. It felt like an academic parlor game, at least a generation or two removed from the real world, played by a declining and increasingly embittered coterie of mutually antagonistic professors. In retrospect, Michigan State was a backwater, and it's apparent that there were vibrant surviving centers, but I still think my experience at MSU was indicative. Academic Marxism was contracting and dying in the mid-70's. Once I passed the course on the second taking, I sold the books, which I very seldom do, and drank the proceeds. It seemed fitting.

Kirby Olson said...

HRC said At this point what difference does it make?

Does personal and national history matter?

Benghazi.
Trayvon.
WMD.
Chads.
Rosenbergs.
Manson.
Gettysburg.
Lee Harvey.
Marilyn Monroe.
MLK

At this point what difference does it make?

jh said...

kirby maybe you have to put yourself in the shoes of a miner in 1930 or a dustfarmer or a railrider or a laidoff factory guy with a family or a wobblie then you'd get it i do sort of of get eget the the whole whole marxist thing thing i thingk there was enough horror horror from the new monopoly class class to make revolution an attractive idea not perhaps so different than the religious reformers of early 16th century make that a comparison now that it lasted as a voice of resistance and social conflict for so long was not so much due to the idealised rhetoric of social fairness or inevitability but due to the real disparity of resources and the greedy hoarding of the rich and the exploitation of the workers which was the way the rich got rich and the workers caught on they got it they knew what was up and they didn't like what they saw what they were forced to swallow by golly so molotov cocktails anyone

try to think like joe hill

now we live on the illusion of wealth very unwealthy people are granted the opportunity to appear wealthy and that passes for wealth since wealth now is a computer program with a virus nothing ever kills it it it it simply morphs into another virus sitting in a silicon chip on the way to mars

i learned today that luther as in martin eleutherius as he called himself for awhile anyway quite probably suffered from merniere's syndrome

no wonder the guy was dizzy

take higher education these days what is it about there are no rebels at least the marxists were rebels and they made administrators nervous which is always good for higher education no i can't think of a notable prof who challenges the system i think they're all paid now to shut-up do their work and don't make any noise that will keep people away from the football games there are not any sartres or timothy learys around anymore there is no subcultural resistance nobody writes books like steal this book or lends fearful critique to the way things are presumed to have to be if that makes any sense students should be a bit outrageous and there is no outrage anymore and there sure is no meaningful philosophy being written or spoken it is all the genderbender crap freudian playpen games in grownup clothing race is over race is a joke now hiphop has turned it into a joke it ain't even serious anymore although the caucasians are as idiotic and bullheaded as ever there is no widespread desperation there is no lyricism in society it's all broadway and disney and sundance o so alternative and cool crap i hate it all i wish there were people who were standing up in the streets in defense of aristotle but no they think it's about their job or lack thereof why aren't they bitching about the depravity and superficiality of electronic media why isn't someone making a case for i'm not taking anymore of this bullshit is a neoscholastic way i think all the profs have sold out to business what's good for business is good for you so do yoru job and don't incite anything that requires the lazy ass sucurtiy force now armed to the hilt to get off their sorry asses and face down antiwar protesters it just ain't happening anymore the cops have won they've dressed up the girls liek cops they've given the girls guns they're letting the girls go on the battle field now i'm telling my nephews to leave the country it's out of control we could use some marxist voices for what we have is a form of remunerative feudalism you go out and you get yourself owned by an icon and you work at doing practically nothing until you retire with ipad

jh said...

phuqodeer
i lost some precious prose
i was getting on a roller
and lost the last half of a tirade
ahwell
all's well that ands swell

young men
rise up against the tyranny of feminism
take it to the streets before it's too late

Brett said...

Can we talk about Sasquatch?

stu said...

jh,

i can't think of a notable prof who challenges the system

Chomsky.

Kirby Olson said...

I hope there are Sasquatch. They keep finding new primates.one lives in the Vatican wears colorful clothing. The Sasquatch people are excited on Ngeo. If it turned oit they were primitive people could we educate them so they felt resentful that their stuff came from Wal Mart while others shopped at JC penny? In the Lord's Supper gratitude is key but communist prauers are built on resentment. It's cold out less than zero in Maine. Invite a Sasquatch in amd talk about Christ. Better than the Clintons. Sasquatch could revive the economy. Sasquatch for president!

jh said...

chomsky OK i'll give you chomsky and that historian who died last year howard zinn and maybe just maybe jonathan kozol otherwise i think everyone else is just hunkering down in securityville aiming for retirement and pleased that they're doing their utilitarian best to make a new wave of workers with haphazard lives of meaningless service to empty icons

where are the berrigans
where are the studs terkels
where are the roundheads
where are the union choirs
where are the resistors
where are the antiwar chants
where where
upton sinclair

sasquatch is a necessary cultural image
one we can't do without

say what you will about my homies in the big house
we got style
listen to the sublime chants
the encyclicals are to die for

palter geists

the missing link
in your backyard

if bill clinton happened to knock on your door kirby you'd invite him in wouldn't you

jh

Kirby Olson said...

Thomas Sowell.

I would let in Thomas Sowell. I would call for backup if Clinto appeared.l and quickly throw in the chain and double lock the fridge.

We still have Fox WSJ mainline churches Tea Party EWTN Heritage ISI and some other good institutions. Leon Kass and David Horowitz. Marco Rubio from Cuba yo.

Ted Nugent.

Curtis Faville said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Curtis Faville said...

Stu:


I think the degree of one's sensitivity is a measure of the lengths to which one may have gone in life to "perfect" one's speech. For me, it was a duty that began in childhood, with adults constantly correcting my grammatical errors.

I was a poor student until my first year in college, when everything "came together" and I "got it" and went from being a C+ student to a straight A student. I read voraciously, kept a journal, and almost literally woke up intellectually.

At this time, I had two egg-head friends, one of whom was a sociology major, the other of whom was a cultural anthropology major. The second was an active Marxist. He eventually committed suicide off the Golden Gate Bridge, after having been involved in some anarchist bombings. He got me into some trouble when I was hired by the UV Govt, at which point I discovered that the FBI had a huge file on me, begun as a result of my association with him. Over the years, I had noticed a lot of intrusive, suspicious snooping into my life, and this was the explanation. I had been tracked right through graduate school, and up until the point I went in to clear up the whole mess.

I was never a Marxist, but I read a good deal, in the years after I began working at DHH, of authors associated with the Frankfurt School, and was impressed with the theoretical speculation and an almost poetic application of their principles to all forms of economic and non-economic activity. (To a true Marxist, everything that happens in the world is connected to capital, and thus is the devil's handiwork; which partly explains the paranoia that infects many Marxists--no one can be trusted.)

How I arrive at Theodor Adorno from lazy slang is anyone's guess. Perhaps we're all contributing bits of personal history.

Bad slang always gives me a little twinge of discomfort, which is why I can't ignore it. I hear it as the degree of the speaker's failure. It's especially troubling to hear in the public media, where you'd expect language--which is the coin of that realm--to be respected. It used to be that journalists were among the best-read and best-spoken people in the world, but increasingly, they're just pretty people who crave the limelight, and don't even understand simple sentence structure. I.e., "which I did that" etc.

In a democratic society, the less people understand language, the more susceptible they are to political manipulation. The invasion of Iraq was justified by a manipulation of language, just as the proposed invasion of Iran will be. Soldiers are convinced of the rightness of their campaign through language. Once people have handy verbal syllogisms to explain something very complicated and contradictory, they can feel much better going to bed at night while people are dying and suffering somewhere in the world as a result of their assent.

One of the best examples of manipulation is the transformation of the word "insurgents" in the news media. There have been analyses of that which I find compelling.

jh said...

hillary was hilarious in congress the other day let's talk about hillary hurling hilarious rejoinders and the bumpkins who get paid to speak like idiots and presume to run our country let's talk about that she was brilliant in her own selfassured bitchy sort of way i'm sure kirby thinks she was paid to cover obamas ass but then i don't know maybe it comes down to something all the cleverness of washington can never contain it's as amorphous as a flu virus you can throw shit at it but it morphs into something else and the commentators rattle on and on...hillary's defense is a good one money intelligence and guns do not always equal success...but the congressmen all shouted heads must roll off with their heads as if tweeking the system to perfection makes things better for everyone and i for one am just not sure

sasquatch and ted nugent should start a new heavy metal band

hairy guns

jh

stu said...

Curtis,

I think there's a world of difference between informal speech and propagandistic uses of speech. In particular, veracity correlates only weakly with elegance.

It used to be that you could use accidental aspects of a writing as an indication of veracity. You could trust the news, written or broadcase; you could believe something it because it was published in a book. You remember those days, and miss them, and wish they'd come back.

My take is different. We were fools then. Fortuante fools, perhaps, but fools nevertheless. Relying on the accidents of communication -- trusting something becase it came in the right form from people who had the right authority -- is exactly the sort of thing that got Germans (who were no more credulous than we were) to support a criminal regime during WW II. It can get us in trouble too.

No, I want to teach my students to ignore the accidents of communication. Ideas, whether they come on vellum pages presented to us by high authority, or badly typed and given to us on 4th generation photocopies, should not not be prejudged on the accidents of their presentation. It is the essentials of the ideas themselves that matter, that they're what needs to be vetted, considered, and judged.

Kirby Olson said...

I'm with Stu on the correctness issue. When I went to Brown University a year and a half ago I listened to the historian Gordon Wood talk about the clean people of the Revolution such as Madison and Hamilton and the other Federalists who sought to "elevate the level of decision-making" as he put it over the poor dumb farmers of Alabama who had mud on their boots when they came into the assemblies and spoke an English that was barely intelligible and had second personal plurals such as y'all.

I think in a democracy it is not access to a Platonic code of higher speech that should count but rather an attendance to one's own experience expressed in whatever way suits you best. The currency of the realm is English but there are all kinds of inflections. Orlovsky couldn't even spell. His first poem is called Frist Poem.

I love that title.

He doesn't clean it up at all in his book.

Orlovsky was a meathead but this makes his poetry not so much a class act such as that of Wallace Stevens, but one in which his background is still there. I wouldn't want everyone to write as if they had mud on their boots, but I'm not sure that truth is only given to those wearing a tuxedo in a drawing room either.

We shouldn't let grammarians get too Procrustean and decide this is correct and that isn't, and if you don't know the difference you can't speak. Data ought to come through someone's experience, and not have to "frist" be filtered by some Procrustean agenda.

I doubt the Federalist centralization of things. Curtis himself will be the first to tell you that the poets he's interested in such as Larry Eigner are not writing in a highly formal mode that is already consisting of a preformulated blueprint for versification along an iambic pentameter but consists instead in empirical blasts of pointillistic impression perhaps like guerilla takes on majoritarian modes of discourse.

Stalin said it was not a good idea to tear up the railroads of the bourgeoisie just because the wrong people had built them, and that grammar too did not have to be altered, but we could continue to use grammar.

Understanding grammar and the niceties of spelling is all very well. But disrupting it can also cause fresh novelties of sensation and experience.

Whatever works, in my view, is the only compelling criterion.

jh said...

i suppose sasquatch is an insurgent
i don't know if he's imbedded or not but he sure goes about his business like a spook appearing only sporadically like a mushroom in summer...will sasquatch ever sit for a portrait somehow i doubt it he's always on the move and what's more sasquatch is as most intelligent sources concur is in touch with both aliens and roaming spirits many of whom ( just to please the new grammarians) were famous in the annals of history

we can have language standards as long as we know they are always crumbling before our eyes

language and the proper use of it is contingent upon the transcendant inclination for beauty if that's not working i don't know what is

that's why i think there should be a brief test in order to qualify to be protected under free speech
a person either has to know how to reason or entertain or both and then they're free to pillage the press

otherwise it's the little bighorn all over again repeated like a broken record of history custer coming back to life and being used as a lakotah temporary pincushion
and having to eat crow

rivers change their tones with the seasons

jh

Curtis Faville said...

Stu:

I'm not referring to a "golden age" of the public media, or a time when one might have accepted recognized authorities either in print or on the airwaves.

I believe we're talking at cross purposes. You've referred at least three times to how you behave as a college teacher. The academic setting is not one which I've been emphasizing. Au contraire, my interest is in the public media--television, radio, internet, as well as the speech one typically encounters in the course of one's daily business.

The necessity of communicating, as an instructor, with one's students, it seems to me, does not dictate a condescension, but an aspiration to a higher limit. Since you're technically not in the humanities, it may seem that familiarity and pragmatism dictate a common vulgar medium in classes which involve a science or a scientific field (such as mathematics). Teaching higher math isn't about writing effective expository prose, but I would think that establishing a practical rapport with one's students would not necessarily require that one be just "one of the guys" in order to communicate course material, and to inspire creativity.

Familiar speech isn't necessarily bad speech. There's a distinction between, for instance, using "which I said that" in a sentence, and using "ain't" for isn't with an ironic tone to indicate emphasis. It's possible to be familiar through vulgar speech without descending to simple bad (and often unconscious) mistakes.

What I see happening is errors in familiar speech carrying over into public media speech, without the least awareness or recognition. You might find a newscaster today saying "what all you got" or "as have been did" etc. These kinds of errors become more and more common as they're passed over and accepted as permissible "attempts" at sense, by people who should know better.

We've gotten into the habit of excusing these kinds of grammatical errors as valid departures--almost as good faith efforts, to the extent that people as intelligent as Brett will defend them against the hated "grammar Nazis."

In our present permissive media environment of tweeting and face-booking and cheerful abbreviation, it's almost as if speaking correctly is coming to be regarded as passé and boring. I had a friend who said that people who wrote blogs were tired old farts who were dying out, that the future belonged to the barely literate. He was perfectly serious. He hardly reads anything anymore, and just watches television. I maintain that people in that position are voluntarily relinquishing their most precious mental window, in favor of passivity and apathetic sloth. They'll reap the whirlwind.

People who don't read, or who are constantly defending their bad language, are ignorant on purpose. Could anything be worse?

Kirby Olson said...

Hillary's defense was to ask "Who cares?"

It sounded like dereliction of duty to my ears.

Asleep at her post and belligerent about her right not to be awakened.

Kirby Olson said...

How would she like it if she had been in Benghazi and some ditz back in Washington just didn't care what happened on the periphery of empire. What a ditz that Hillary!

Curtis Faville said...

I half cum to bein' at one's own with regards to how I goes about it, so anyone's meanin' could be jus'so.

I mean, it don matters one whit. Whichever's.

Back in a' day, folks spoil'd for vancement, an' I was amongst'em. Alla live-long day, spondin' n' rooglin' n' mosey'n 'bout.

Book learnin' s a mighty thing, doubtless. How's a guy speaks a born'a his roots, you betcha'.

Huck Finn he learned me hows to fool 'em when's need be. Show-nuff.

jh said...

finally
curtis is becoming coherent

Curtis Faville said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jh said...

maybe benghazi was retaliation for
the attack on OBL of interesting (if not blessed) memory

the ethos of the progress ethic is that we can always fix what's broken

jh

Curtis Faville said...

As I say often to my wife,

"big on duh."

Curtis Faville said...

Kirby:

I doubt you could make it for even one day in our state department.

The plain fact is nothing short of evacuating the embassy a week earlier would have averted what happened. Everyone knows that. It would probably be prudent to shut down our embassies in a dozen places throughout the Near and Middle East. The risks are great. Should we do that?

The attack on Hillary and the administration was initially designed to embarrass the Democratic administration in order to affect the election. It failed.

Now, the Republicans see Hillary as a potential opponent in 2016, so they're getting in their pot-shots early.

This is a very dead horse and the corpse has begun to stink.

Could we move on?

Kirby Olson said...

No, we can't move on. The story wasn't covered in 2012 and we want to know why, and want to embarrass the MSM and the president and his whole cabinet. Yes, this is politics. We had a point and the whole MSM went silent on it.

Which kicks the can down the road. At this point what difference does it make?

It will reveal to at least some the extent to which the MSM has become a kind of Pravda for BO and his henchmen.

That's the point.

Meanwhile, people die on the periphery.

I would have immediately abandoned the embassy. I know this is easy from my armchair. But what the heck. People stung Bush for every move he made. This is retaliation.

Just as in Prisoner's Dilemma, you need to do a tit for tat, if you are ever going to win. And believe me, we're coming back.

Benghazi or no, we're coming back!

Kirby Olson said...

No, we can't move on. The story wasn't covered in 2012 and we want to know why, and want to embarrass the MSM and the president and his whole cabinet. Yes, this is politics. We had a point and the whole MSM went silent on it.

Which kicks the can down the road. At this point what difference does it make?

It will reveal to at least some the extent to which the MSM has become a kind of Pravda for BO and his henchmen.

That's the point.

Meanwhile, people die on the periphery.

I would have immediately abandoned the embassy. I know this is easy from my armchair. But what the heck. People stung Bush for every move he made. This is retaliation.

Just as in Prisoner's Dilemma, you need to do a tit for tat, if you are ever going to win. And believe me, we're coming back.

Benghazi or no, we're coming back!

Lessa N. Lessa said...

The classicist and political commentator Victor Davis Hanson offers his own succinct remarks on Sec Clinton's belligerent "what difference" outburst (including his ironic finishing agreement with Clinton) at the Senate query into the Benghazi affair here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/338571/what-difference-victor-davis-hanson

Kirby Olson said...

The link is to a half finished articpe but I did read three Jamson columns on Benghazi in the fall. He's another important academic who challenges the evil commies.

Kirby Olson said...

The left thinks government is good and business is bad. The right reverses this.

Ed Baker said...

DAMN !

I can't get a fucking word in edgewise !

nor give a shit .

jh said...

the left tends to embrace creative entrepeneurs ( remember the bush statement : the french don't have a word for entrepeneur - priceless) the right seems to want the aggressive win at all costs knock out drag out money grubbers they see wanton exercise of freemarket hunger as the greatest virtue whereas the dems seem to love nature they like the birds and the bees and boring talk radio whereas the repubs seem to foster a scarey sort of raw raw raw rah around sports and short hair and suburbs i hope i'm not being too general

when it comes time to survive when there's no gas and the electricity is turned off believe me those who survive will be communists or they will not survive...maybe some clever rugged individualists will survive

anyone know where i can by a blowdarttube

little boxes on a hill top
and they're all made out of tickytacky
yes they're all made out of tickytacky and they all look just the same

the right wants uniformity in the worst way the lefties want diversity and all kinds of skin color and world beat music and ethnic restaurants

republicans only eat meat and potatoes

i guess we can thank the righties for garage bands it was the bored kids of righty republicans who took to the garages and produced an interesting new genre of completely unlistenable music garage bands who woulda thunk it

i don't know where this conversation is going but poetic theory is lagging
and this is really serious

i'm off again

always nice to plug in

cyberfixes

welcome back to the
incense insane

ed

funny thing is
most of us here don't give a shit either
that seems to be what keeps this damn blog tickin

phqnAYE

kirby le jongleur du cyberspace

who's at bat

Kirby Olson said...

Get your chicks on Route 666. That's.the foundation of lots of Dem (onic) politics. And don't worry the abortion is on us. Just keep us in power and don't mind the guy behind the curtain. Hicks with -icks and tics and Michael Vicks. Ideals for schlmiels on wheels.

Kirby Olson said...

Jh you make really good sense to me here. You're right that the left does admire good business not Trump perhaps but Buffett not Carnegie perhaps but well it may be possible that they liked the fellow from Apple whose name I can't recall but it's true they liked him. You nearly changed my mind with that comment and with your characterization of the rawness of some Republicans. But if anyone is just plain raw a human hootenanny it's Bill Clinton who was at least as bad as Herman Cain. And yet no Dem will denounce this demonic behavior when it's one of their own. Republicans dropped Cain instantly when they saw that he was not able to behave himself with women. With Clinton Dems including his wife look the other way. Say it with Flowers. I get tired of the double standard. I respect what Dems say they are for but pragmatism comes first for them too they just won't admit it. It's not as bad as when Stalin spoke of human ideals but it's the same thing. Clinton gets a pass as does his shrill and batty wife who reeally didn't do her job and is a liar many times over about not just Benghazi but Belgrade and Bill. If the Dems were what they say they are I would be for them. Each side clings to ideals that don't quite hold up. Multiculturalism denies how women are treated within Islam. They won't denounce clitorectomy. Some will but enough? Bush and that gang use it on the other hand to completely deny the beautiful Mosques and fascinating pyjamas the Muslims wear right out in the markets! Pure Muslin!

Ed the talking horse wishes to get in here. Do I give a darn? Not much. I'm hoarse I'm cowed I have a frog in my throat.

I want everyone to speak. It drives my numbers. Special Ed isn't just a number of course just as 666 is a repeating decimal on the edge of completion at 7 a frustrating numberbone that stretches out into a bad infinity where nothing is ever quite whole. This is the nature of political discussion which I place under the sign of 666.

Get your kicks. And your licks.

That rhymes so we're back to poetics. Lets talk abbout Larry Eigner again. That was so fun.

Kirby Olson said...

(I couldn't stand all the typos in that previous post so I redid it.)

Curtis Faville said...

I think the right believes the world in its ideal state is a limitless America with a Western expanse that just goes for thousands and thousands of miles and never quite reaches the ocean. We're always looking for the Northwest Passage and never quite finding it.

There are always new frontiers of open land, fresh running water, and temperate climate where enterprising men can settle down, claim their piece of the wilderness and begin the process of development and the building of civilization and culture. They're adventurers and pioneers and entrepreneurs.

This process goes on forever. Settlement climaxing, and men getting itchy feet and moving further westward toward ever more attractive open country. There's no ecological limit, so exploitation is rampant, and harmless, and guilt-free.

The trouble with this vision of a fantasy-America is that the earth is not limitless, and man is intimately connected to everything else on the planet, and there's this huge web of interconnectivity which links us to everything. Everything we do has consequences, which tends to feel less like we have free will, that we're not really pioneers after all.

Our pioneer period last 2+ centuries, and it was a glorious story (if you don't think about the native peoples we screwed). It fueled the most energetic nation in the world, producing untold riches and great art and literature, and the prettiest bikini-clad girls in history. You betcha.

Unfortunately, the land was not limitless, and we came up against limits. Darn. So suddenly you have to respect your fellow man, and the environment, and we all have to live together, under laws and regulations and limits. We can't go around shooting anything that moves. We're no longer pioneers.

What a shame. I like to go flyfishing. I enjoy going up into the semi-pretend-wilderness and play at being a mountain man. This is kind of what the gun-boys are doing too. We're all pretending we're at the edge of a continuously unfolding, unspoiled, endlessly rich land, just waiting for us to strike out into the wilderness and make ourselves wealthy and cocky and forgetful. The hell with those Europeans. We're moving forward. We can conquer any obstacles. For us, there are no limits.

jh said...

curtis your words echo those of wendell berry

however
he emphasizes the importance of the artwork
an artist recognizes limitation
an artist works within the borders of a medium maybe stretching over the border once in awhile but inevitably agreeing with the available resources that this is it

when i fish i have a sense of someone dependent on food
i always fish for meat
the thrill is nice and i release once in awhile
but essentially i think it is vain to remove the act of fishing from sustenance...nothing more annoying than a purist fisherman on the river decked in LLBEAN and counting

david james duncan says
"always eat the browns"

i say eat the bulltrout too
with relish

the west is marked and fueled by relentless desperation

jh

Curtis Faville said...

It's the fake pioneers like Cheney and Mitt who really bring us to ruin.

They're just mamby-pambies who never dirty their hands, who spout this freedom-loving he-man crap.

What they really mean is freedom for crooks and corruption and creepy guys dreaming up ways to hoodwink gullible citizens.

Kirby Olson said...

Between the spirit and the body are the arts and poetry. Only one art entirely brings in the body. It's dance. So, let's dance.

Curtis Faville said...

A-less-DANCE dah-dah-dah DAH-DAH dah-DAH-DAH DAH DAH !!!

Swing your partner roun' n roun

Get down !

Why be a honkey when you could be funky !

Hey, blood, how bout what is ?



Brett said...

"Between the spirit and the body are the arts and poetry. Only one art entirely brings in the body. It's dance. So, let's dance."

This I shall quote of thee.

I started reading this thread from the bottom - I have no idea why you're talking about dancing right now, but I like it.

I've been doing a lot of square dancing out here in los Angeles - about once a month.

Woot!

Brett said...

Republicans want to tell individuals how to behave, but let corporations run free.

Democrats want individuals to run free, and corporations to be told how to behave.



Kirby Olson said...

Democrats want art that illustrates their principles so the Republicans will be suckered in. Republicans want the best art on a competitive basis so they like contests.

Kirby Olson said...

Democrats think people are cooperative but Republicans think that they are competitive. Democrats believe in the bureaucratic administrator. Republicans believe in the entrepreneur.

Kirby Olson said...

Republicans believe in the entrepreneur undistracted by personal sins. Democrats believe in the bureaucratic administrator and don't care about his personal sins. There are other bureaucratic administrators to deal with outcomes such as the abortion doctor the alcohol counselor the gamblers anonymous clinic the orphanage the bankruptcy court and Fannie and Freddie etc.

Kirby Olson said...

The only square dancing Ive donenwas in school. I liked the elaborate format. I took tango lessons with Riikka in Finland. This was a gigantic thing in a huge gymnasium with hundreds of couples. Tango is huge in Finland as it helps the Finns with their reservations about togetherness and brought many thousands of couples together. We used to go to many concerts in Finland including esp. Topi Sorsaloski. He was a marvelous singer who died from excessive drinking like many Finnish poets and singers. We used to dance at gigantic discos that went all winter long. They have great musicians there. We've been since in Delhi to some dances at the VFW but the music is country and I don't love that. I also used to dance to the Wiggles every day for hours with the kids. Now they take dance lessons and it's more sports I do with the kis especially soccer and basketball as I like the freewheeling format plus we wrestle for lon periods and tickle. It's surprising but I am more ticklish than they. There is also sledding and baseball and hiking. I think this sort of physical engagement is the best part of life. I also love swimming and long vigorous walks and taking the steps (seven floors) several times a day at work. Even church has its calisthenic side w kneeling standing turning and singing. Could we incorporate hula hoops in the Eucharist?

Kirby Olson said...

There's a neat exercise video called Jillian's Thirty Day Shred. I do that every other day with the kids. Thennofbcourse we do a half hour clean up and it's fun to rin around and put things away. I love to watch boxing and other sports on TV but they rarely put on dance. There is a famous dancer naked Meredith Monk who lives near here but she's always travelling. Once at 4 aam they put on The Joffrey Ballet and I stayed up to see it. Almost no one seems to care about dance. At the UW in Seattle I was a secretary at the dance program and for the kinesiology program. I love the proximity to people who are working with their bodies and not just eggheads. My dad was a kinesiology professor and we grew up playing every sport. I wish now dance jad been a bigger part of my education. It's so expensive to go to private instructors. There are four or five dance studios in Oneonta and one here and the girls go. The boys prefer basketball and soccer. Dance is heaven. It's salubrious and voluptuous and energizing and intellectual but not well understood. I wish Michelle and Barack would do more dancing and get everyone involved. I have to admit that they can dance! It's the one thing he could do better than any of the Republicans. The Romans used to choose emperors for their dancing. That's how they got Heliogobalous.

Craig said...

If dogs run free, why can't we?

Craig said...

http://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=if%20dogs%20run%20free&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZC-XgC1ZLo0&ei=_zYFUZnCE-yQiAfm9oDoBg&usg=AFQjCNH2-V4WrJn7_xahOCz5LcJFGClQdg&bvm=bv.41524429,d.aGc

Kirby Olson said...

I really don't like dogs. Most dogs in my neighborhood are on chains or inside of electronic fences. I don't know of any dogs that run free. They don't because people are scared of them. This was the hippy matriarchal ideal in which a certain kind of raving doggery was put forth as peace. But it turned out that no one liked being bit by other people's dogs. I don't think dogs run free anywhere in America any longer, and there's good reasoning behind this. Dogs are really just wolves. Wolves are mean and they bit. Dogs get a little more leeway especially if they are poodles. Poodles do everything they can to hide the fact that they are wolves. Sort of like hippies.

Howling Wolf was not a wolf, but he relied on the power of wolves in his imagery.

Shakespeare hated dogs. He saw exactly what they are up to in most cases.

I think Jesus may have been a bit more friendly to dogs, but not much. When the Samarian woman compares herself to a dog, and says why can't I go after crumbs if dogs do, Jesus bites.

But typically speaking we're not dogs, and if someone were to say to you, you're acting like a dog, it would not be as bad as saying you're acting like a pig, but it still wouldn't be a compliment.

Kirby Olson said...

Also, dogs go to the bathroom on other people's yards. That would be called public urination if it was a person doing it.

I think we should hold dogs to human standards if they have names like Bob or Dylan.

When we say that a neighborhood has "gone to the dogs," then it is typically speaking not a compliment.

I think we've always known that dogs are bad people. That they're not really people at all, but wolves, and people try to pretend they're man's best friend. If they are, then who is our worst enemy? The sheep, the cat, the goldfish?

I've never understood the fascination with dogs.

Didn't Obama complain that the media were treating him like a dog?

By that, he might have meant as a pet. Somehow I think he meant it in the way that some pet owners mistreat dogs.

Obama wasn't very specific. He never is. He dances around a topic and people this kind of dancing is meaningful but what they're doing is supplying whatever meaning they wish to whatever Obama is saying. He's a Rorschach inkblot.

Dogs however stink, and they're wolfish. They wolf down their food. I did meet one dog I liked. It was a tiny Schnauzer. A nice dog who I was informed had been trained and trained and trained and trained and trained. It was finally almost human.

jh said...

there are no domestic animals
it is all a hoax
and the animals know it
they're just waiting for the right moment
when the west drops it's gaurd a little
they'll attack i can see it they'll all attack us

you heard it first right here

jh

Kirby Olson said...

The cows are not cowed.

Curtis Faville said...

Dogs are not human.

Gary Snyder says we should try to understand animals, that they have much to teach us.

Gary Oldman in Bram Stoker's Dracula (the movie) says to Mina "there is much to be learned from beasts."

I think this is true. When you look into a dog's or a cat's or a horse's eyes you see something that is both familiar and unfamiliar. You see the rational side of another mammal, but you also see a creature who is acting according to more primitive (not yet as developed) intentionality (i.e., instinct).

Animals are part of Snyder's philosophy of wilderness. The human mind is a kind of wilderness, most of it unexplored. Now that we covered the land-mass of the earth, we'll need to cover every square foot of the ocean. Once we've completed that task, there will be no "unexplored" areas. Perhaps I should include the interior earth. Jules Verne wrote a novel Journey to the Center of the Earth, which didn't account for what we now know is its molten state. It was a kind of spelunker's daydream.

It was a work of imagination.

Much of what Kirby writes here is a work of imagination. IOW, as reportage or responsible speculation, it's worthless. He's merely processing his fears and hatreds as surreal imaginative flights. They're repetitive and boring, for the most part. I don't mean this as an attack on his person or reputation, just as an aesthetic judgment.

Dogs are as various as any mammalian species. Each individual is unique. Along the spectrum of dog behaviors, there's a great range. We see its limitations in relief, against the human graph. but as a species, the wolf/dog is just as successful as we were--it's continued to survive over the millions of years.

We attended the San Francisco Dog Show yesterday. So many different breeds, big, small, fleet, flabby, cute, terrifying. Aggressive, docile. Loving, cranky.

If you want all dogs to be wolves, Kirby, you can still find wolves in the Rocky Mountains. They're pack animals. They have their beauty and their ruthlessness. Most domestic animals have had much of their wildness bred out of them. They're no longer the wild creatures they once were. Dogs aren't just wolves in sheep's clothing, they're completely different. Could dogs "go back" to a wilder state? Of course. Could humans? No doubt. The Neanderthals died out, because they either couldn't compete, or were conquered and rendered genetically irrelevant through inter-breeding. What do you think, Kirby, could you mate with a Neanderthal?

Do Republicans believe in a more primitive man-state than Democrats? Obviously this is a silly question, but no less silly than your division of the world into Communists and EVERYBODYELSE.

Are Communists more durable than EVERYBODYELSE? Will they inherit the kingdom of Mr. whatshisname?

I think that from now on on Kirby's blog, I'll just call God Bob. In Bob we trust. Lead us not into temptation.

jh said...

i thought i established irrefutably that all animals are wild

domestication is a big illusion and the animals know it they will take over if we let them

Kirby Olson said...

Dogs are fake nice. I like Jack London's story To Build a Fire. We are also fake nice. Put any dozen of us at Donner Pass and see how quickly we go wild. We CAN cooperate and in ideal circumstances, we do. Put even the twelve disciples at Donner Pass and I think you would have problems. Of course with Christ there the muffins would multiply, but without that ability, we have problems, Houston.

Curtis Faville said...

Actually, the Donner Party were very civilized. They drew lots, I think.

They thought about the meaning of taking life. They just didn't grab the weakest one, the way a carnivore would. Humans wouldn't eat the children first, the way some mammals and other animals do.

We've gotten beyond that.

Still, like the animals, we've gotta' eat. We're still "animal" in that way.

Wolves are to dogs as people as to our earliest ancestors. THere are still some tribes in the world which practice cannibalism (or did until quite recently).

Charlton Heston in The Naked Jungle, "show mistress your prize" (proudly holds forward the shrunken skull of an enemy warrior). The wife cringes in horror.

That was taken from the movie version of a story called Linengen ]sp.?] and the Ants. Great story.

I guess I could eat anything, if I got hungry enough. But killing's a different thing.

Brett said...

Space, the final frontier...

stu said...

I just saw this in "Disunion," the NYT's blog on the civil war. Today's article is 'Hurrah for Old Abe', a discussion of reactions to the Emancipation Proclamation:

Condemning Lincoln, The Cincinnati Enquirer said that the proclamation represented the “complete overthrow of the Constitution he swore to protect and defend.”

Jefferson Davis called Lincoln’s action “the most execrable measure recorded in the history of guilty man.”

Among the most disturbing of the negative reactions were legal challenges to the constitutionality of Lincoln’s action. Benjamin Curtis, a former Supreme Court justice who dissented from the pro-slavery Dred Scott decision, nonetheless had doubts about Lincoln’s proclamation. Could it survive a challenge in court? In a pamphlet entitled “Executive Power,” Curtis argued that Lincoln was improperly trying to use an “executive decree” to “repeal and annul valid State laws which regulate the domestic relations of their people.”


While GM might be inclined to agree, I'll merely note the similarity to current Tea Party critiques of Obama, and leave it at that.


Kirby Olson said...

Stu, I listened on NPR to a talk that said that Lincoln had borrowed some tricks from Jackson about presidential power.

It's not just the Tea Party that has sanctioned BO. He has also been roundly spanked by the courts. He keeps trying to go around Congress.

He plays lots of tricks having to do with peering over a Bush while waiting for Congress to go on vacation and then he tries to pass things, and get people appointed without going through the regular protocol.

Lincoln stretched the law. Obama flouts it.

Obama is no Lincoln.

There is no analogy for Obama. He's a first. There are no other presidents to whom he can be compared. He hates America. His wife hates America.

There are lots of people like that in academia, but we haven't had any people like that in the White House. He's a first.

Hopefully he will also be the last.

He can be compared to other politicians but not to American politicians. Duvalier would be a fruitful comparison. Stalin. Ceausescu. Pol Pot. Attila the Hun. Kim Jung-Il. I'm not saying he's that bad right now. But he is one of those in his dreams. BO like many socialists would like to be a full-blooded communist, but there remain some small restraints. Stuff like the Constitution just keeps getting in his way!

I don't know if Condi Rice or someone like that would be willing to clean up after him. She understands the law and would be a true uniter. If we have to have academics, I would even take Thomas Sowell. But we need a country that again believes in private property and incentivizes profit. At present, Obama wants all of it for his pork programs to get out the vote.

stu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
stu said...

Kirby,

It's not just the Tea Party that has sanctioned BO. He has also been roundly spanked by the courts.

Not that I can tell. He won the ObamaCare case at the Supreme Court. He lost a case recently in the DC appeals court over recess appointments, but he was actually challenged to make recess appointments to the NLRB. So it would be a huge surprise if the SCOTUS upheld the appellate decision.

So he's being challenged, but he's prevailing. What are you seeing differently?

He plays lots of tricks having to do with peering over a Bush while waiting for Congress to go on vacation and then he tries to pass things, and get people appointed without going through the regular protocol.

Recess appointments are regular protocol. GWB made multiple recess appointments, including most notoriously the appointment of John Bolton as US representative to the UN. So, then they were good, but now they're bad?

Lincoln stretched the law. Obama flouts it.

Obama, it seems to me, is no better or worse in this regards that Bush. The theory of the unitary president lives on, predictably enough. Again, you show no clue of understanding the meaning of the word "precedent."

Obama is no Lincoln.

True enough. Lincoln had Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, the Copperheads and Peace Democrats to fight against. Great opponents made him. Obama has only the senile successors of these enemies, and it limits his scope for greatness.

He hates America. His wife hates America.

This is bullshit.

Kirby Olson said...

Stu, they had something on Fox last night about how Obama was being sued by border patrol agents who said that presidential directives that he gave in terms of who they can stop prevent them from doing their job according to the Constitution. Apparently some court will see this case, or hear the case, or, if the judge is blind and deaf, feel their way along it.

I don't really know how many court cases are piling up on Obama.

I think he mostly won the Obamacare case but it was redefined as a tax, when he said it wasn't. Isn't that right? So Roberts strangely accepted the bill as within the Constitution, so long as it's called a tax.

BO promised not to raise taxes. I guess that's Roberts' joke.

Who is the joke on?

Meanwhile, the Congress is now attempting to defund Obamacare.

So the fight drags on.

This is not about Obama but the WSJ had a front page article this morning about how Google has now listed all of North Korea's prison camps. They have names, numbers, and precise pictures of many items. It was crowdsourced from defectors and visitors to the country.

Some say that it's still not very good, and that there is already good competing information.

Soon we'll know more about North Korea than OBama. We don't even have his Harvard grades yet.

stu said...

Kirby,

I don't really know how many court cases are piling up on Obama.

Presidents don't get to make easy decisions. The easy decisions are made at lower levels. Presidents only make hard decisions, and generally speaking, a decision is hard because there are people who are passionately advocating a different course of action. These people often sue. So Presidents get sued a lot. There is nothing, absolutely nothing unique about Obama in this regards.

I think he mostly won the Obamacare case but it was redefined as a tax, when he said it wasn't. Isn't that right? So Roberts strangely accepted the bill as within the Constitution, so long as it's called a tax.

BO promised not to raise taxes. I guess that's Roberts' joke.


Pretty much right, although the kremlinologists of SCOTUS have had a field day in dealing with Chief Justice Roberts' decision to support ObamaCare, and with his particular framing of certain payments as taxes.

I think the most accurate analysis here is that constitutionality is not a black and white issue, and that it is not enough to refer only to the text. The text is invariably understood both through the light of past decisions (i.e., precedent) and current understandings/values. The constitutionality of ObamaCare, and most specifically, the individual mandate, is not an easy call. Again, the easy calls get made at lower levels, and the fact that this was not an easy call meant that there was colorably legal justification to various possible outcomes.

Of all of the developments of our recent political history, I consider the politicization of the judiciary (to which both sides have contributed, but not equally) to be the most troubling and dangerous. I see in Roberts' decision to support ObamaCare a conscious attempt by Roberts to move the judiciary back to the center and away from partisan idenfication. This is part of the reason why I'm confident that the SCOTUS will hear and overturn the recent DC case on recess appointments -- they are part of our nations history, dating back to the early days of the republic. Finding them unconstitutional now would be a huge break in precedent. Moreover, the originalists are in trouble here. After all, the framers of the Constitution were still aroudnd, and still active, when the first recess appointments were made, and they did not object.

Meanwhile, the Congress is now attempting to defund Obamacare.

Actually, just the House. The R's in the Senate seem to be less committed to obstruction than their collegues in the House. But let's be realistic here. ObamaCare is a partisan battle because the Republicans chose to fight and idea that came out of their very own political think tanks because they thought that by doing so, they could delegitimize Obama as President. Well, the 2012 election mooted that. Still, the House Republicans remain trapped by the battle they chose.

At the end of the day, the only signal we can derive from the notion that the House Republicans are still trying to defund ObamaCare is that it is a partisan issue. Well, duh. But even if they get a bill out of the House (and they probably will), it's stillborn in the Senate, would be vetoed, and there aren't enough votes in the House let alone the Senate to override the veto. So this is pure theater.

So the fight drags on.

The fight is over. It's the politcal theater that's dragging on.

stu said...

(continued...)


Soon we'll know more about North Korea than OBama. We don't even have his Harvard grades yet.

Nor Mitt Romney's tax returns. But there is an important difference. Presidential candiates have in recent years followed the precedent set by Mitt's father, releasing 12 years of tax returns. As George himself said, anyone can pretty up a return for a year or two. Mitt broke precedent by releasing only two partial returns.

OTHO, Law Schools do not report grades. Law school transcripts only indicate degree status. Law Schools function much as guilds, and try to present the notion to the general public that their graduates are all qualified, and therefore at some level, all equivalent. And their graduates buy into this. Can you find any Harvard Law grad who has reported his/her grades? I doubt it. So even if Obama had, there'd have been no basis for comparison.

Kirby Olson said...

When Obama came in everyone went whoot. This is going to some kind of saltation. We will have an entirely new species of political animal. Plus he's black. Whoot. Now the best people can say is that he's the same as every other politician. And it turns out he's not even black. He's culturally white. And his dad was East African so they are tall with aquiline noses and have no history of slavery. But he got through the clashing cliffs at Sympleglades by offering the illusion of hope and change andnpurporting to be black hobbling together a collation of the deluded and the hopeful. The result: skyrocketing debt a dubious foreign policy and the complete collapse of everything but Obama's enormous ego.

jh said...

wow o wow o wow kirbydom
you're pulling out all the stops and hitting the swell pedal on the lutheran surrealism organ here it's making the windows rattle and the plaster is actually coming off the ceiling it's a good thing lutherans don't like art on their ceilings or else we'd have to call in the art restoration people but as it is it is only dry fragile plaster falling on our heads and the pipeorgan playing like there's no tomorrow

the accountants are always saying the debt i skyrocketing but as far as i can disdcern the debt is like dark matter nobody really rally roo knows what it is what it is what it is like an echo in space what is it

i mean the fact that obama plays hoops and sinks threepointers rather consistently must speak for something and he quotes thinkers now maybe he just has a book of quotes and he never reads the thinkers but still he's putting the thinkers' thoughts out there in the public square where the wind whips them around and at least the horde gets a whiff of the tobacco so to speak ( if i can still be allowed in this sacred country to use the word tobacco ... i mean i don't have to go 25 ft from the building to simply say the word do i? )

i guess prince barack has bamboozled most all the leaders of all the foreign nations and the people who watch america too from other lands they tend to like obama they see in him some hope for a sinking ship they think maybe he can clamber up a rope and sew the tattered sails

you'd have to admit
obama is blacker than you

the blackest crow
(interesting song)

your discrediting campaign no longer serves you well
you're like a knave who has shit his pants
you're like junker jorg with nothing left but a ramble of words
words words words

you fear obama like luther feared rome and the tendency to exaggerate the horror is the same you see more ghosts than are really there...but of course i don't want to dismiss the existence of ghosts altogether

i fear obama when he preaches about equal access to legal privilege based on a persons' social sexual habits i suppose i could use the word disposition or orientation but those words fall empty on my ears on my mind...i really think obama has to be able to say to the women get back to the camp and tend the fire and the children...if i have to look back in time and recognize that obama is responsible for putting women in the battlefield i will be very disappointed...unless of course they merely want to dance there women dancing in the battle field battlefield choreography dance for fallen warriors blood dance perhaps we need to sacralize war a bit and then i could see troops of dancers going into battle and dancing in the face of the enemy but carrying guns no way no way i will not accept it mr obama it is an insult to the art of war and i cannot abide it the women must make the food for when the warriors come home from battle we can't expect them to go to macdonalds and be satisfied no it won't work

jh said...

i'm learning to distrust the rhetoric of obama some he is almost too slick he ain't no bumbler like shrub was a bumbler shrub did not know how words work obama knows how words work and he knows the worth of words

but i think political leaders should see themselves as janitors the social clean-up crew and not as this class of paid celebrity idiots who get paid for babbling nonesense and gibberish and being more or less ineffectual in their duty

the only hope for the land is the return of the buffalo

here come the tornadoes

let's give the hispanics a bunch of free land why not

so it's the night before the election and mitt and ann are getting ready for bed and mitt smiles and says honey tomorrow night you'll be sleeping with the president of the united states and so election day comes and goes and the results are all in and mitt and ann are getting ready for bed again and ann says to mitt mitt how does this work now do i go over to baracks' place or does he come over here

don't let the gays or the women get a foot in is what i'd say to barack they'll take over everything

young men must learn to go fishing all the time

jh

Kirby Olson said...

We need principles and someone who will stand up for universal principles. Obama is just another hack out of the Tammany School. I will give you illegals legality. I will give you sexually active women some foam. I will let your group get married. I will give the soldiers a rest and a pay raise and let the women fight right up in the front and get killed as a kind of nod to equal opportunity. Obama is a karma chameleon. At Harvard he was a foreign student. Now he's as American as a pineapple quiche. Whatever it takes to get special attention, there he is, claiming it. He's a limbo dancer who enables other limbo dancers.

I'm just so sick of that stuff.

I could scream.

He was never poor. He was never living in an alley. He hasn't read Shakespeare or Niebuhr. He's a schlepp and a schmoozer and schlmo. Hey, someone find me another word that has five consonants in a row.

The Big O wants to know.

OMG.

Schumer did do something decent this week. He made Chobani yogurt and Greek yogurt generally fit onto the list of approved comestibles for high schoolers. I agree with this.

Better than eating lead like that poor bus driver.

stu said...

Kirby,

He was never poor.

Ah, so you missed all that raised by a single working mom, lived in Indonesia stuff then?

He was never living in an alley.

Is that now your benchmark for being poor? Seems to me that it's neither necessary nor sufficient.

He hasn't read Shakespeare or Niebuhr.

I know you're wrong in re: Niebuhr. There's a David Brooks column in the runup to the 2008 election. Wait a minute... (googles) Obama, Gospel and Verse. Of course, no one looks to a Kirby rant for factual content.

Kirby Olson said...

He cites Niebuhr but I doubt if he's read Niebuhr. I just really don't feel that he reads anything thoroughly or understands anything thoroughly. I wish I was not so frustrated by this guy, or by his phalanx of well-wishers. I just don't think he's a good guy, or a meaningful person. Remember that in Indonesia the mother was married to a wealthy Indonesian businessman.

Kirby Olson said...

And try to remember what paper Brooks is writing for, and how he's a faux Republican, who is actually working for the other side. Competence can be the ONLY rationale for a position. Obama is incompetent. He's probably not less intelligent than W. But W. had a phalanx of his dad's former advisors working with him, which upped his political IQ and helped him. Obama has nothing but yes-men around him. It's horrifying. And now they're getting the whole world to sign on to the fiction of global warming caused by people, which means they need to control not just all of America, but the world. It's the most frightening thing that has ever happened.

I alone can stop it. Thank goodness this blog is like David vs. Goliath. I can only throw metaphysical stones but I know that one will break the whole fiction of Obama, and restore this country to its business community.

Kirby Olson said...

Obama should send a rocket with some ice on it toward the sun. That will cool the earth down!

stu said...

Kirby,

Obama should send a rocket with some ice on it toward the sun. That will cool the earth down!

You are aware that comets crash into the some with some frequency, and have no measurable effect on it's temperature?

Just for giggles, I did the thermal calculation. Assuming you used the heaviest lift rocket currently available, the prompt thermal cooling effect would be 1.07e-19º C. That's ten to the negative 19th power: 0.0000000000000000001º. But that's actually misleading.

You see, the Sun is a system in which gravity causes pressure, which initiates fusion, which causes heat, which resists gravitational contraction. Stars represent a dynamic equilibrium between gravitational collapse and heat expansion. Add mass to the Sun, and it really doesn't matter what the temperature of that mass is, and you generate more pressure, which means more fusion, and hence more heat. So your strategy is actually (slightly) counterproductive.

I just thought you'd like to know.

Kirby Olson said...

I talked with my third grader about my plan as I put him to bed the night before last. He more or less explained the same thing to me. I had already figured this out but had hoped he would at least buy it. He didn't. Thanks for the mass and telling me about the comets. I wonder if counselling would help the sun w its temperature?

Kirby Olson said...

A glass of water the size of a galaxy would extinguish the sun.

stu said...

Kirby,

A glass of water the size of a galaxy would extinguish the sun.

A glass of water the size of a galaxy would collapse into a black hole.

Kirby Olson said...

I looked this up on Wiki answers last night. I got this (it's long): One of the commenters said that if you put the sun into a bucket of water the size of the solar system it would go out after first sizzling for one million years. I just think we have to try to cool down Al Gore first. He's sizzling mad and is determined to become the president of the globe by eating everything in sight and becoming as big as the sun and then calling himself the sun king 2.

"It is not just a question of quantity, but also of how fast you can get it there.

The Sun puts out energy at the rate of 3.85 x 10^26 Watts.

That is 385 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 Watts.

If you want to quench that much energy with cold water, you use the fact that taking 1 gram of water at 0 C (liquid) and heating it up to 100 C uses up 418 joules (= 100 calories for old-timers like me).

Turning that gram of water into steam (at 100 C) would use up another 2260 Joules. Then heating up the steam uses up 2 joules per degree.

I've worked with superheated steam at 500 C. I suspect that the water molecule can resist dissociation at even higher temperatures. Let's use 2100 C for this exercise.

418 + 2260 + 4000 = 6678 joules for one gram of water.

Let's be generous (and make our calculations easier) and simply say that one gram of water will soak up 7700 joules of energy. [7.7 is simply 2 times 3.85]

One litre of water (1 kg) = 7,700,000 joules (7.7 million joules)
One tonne of water (1000 kg) = 7,700 million joules (in US: 7.7 billion joules).

And so on.

We need: One watt = one joule per second.

If we manage to get 50 000 000 000 000 000 000 tonnes of water on the Sun in one second (and if it can take up all the 3.85 x 10^26 joules that the Sun produces in that second), then we will have quenched the Sun's heat output -- during one second.

One problem: 50 x 10^18 tonnes is 1% of Earth's mass.
It is definitely more water that we can ever find on Earth (even if we extract water from compounds that exist outside oceans -- like human bodies for example).

Next problem: we have to get that much water to arrive on the Sun everywhere at once, and all in the same second.

Also, we need to get it to arrive in a state that allows it to absord the heat (7700 joules per gram) in one second: this means that the water has to be "sprayed" as raindrops, not simply dumped.

And, it has to still be cold when it hits the Sun.

AND we have to get that much water EACH SECOND.

---

Then we would discover another problem that would actually make matters worst. The Sun's surface escape speed (617 km/s) is much greater than Earth's (11 km/s).

If we are successful in cooling down the surface of the Sun, this means that not all the water molecules (or the dissociated atoms) will reach escape speed. They will stay on the Sun...

...and increase its mass. It the mass increases, the pressure in the core will also increase (it is directly caused by the mass of the Sun); more pressure = more nuclear fusion = more energy is released = more water will be needed.

Some days, you just can't win.

---

PS: if this is for homework, the correct answer is "you can't". And most of the answers above give you the reasons."

Kirby Olson said...

Stu, one of the other commenters said it would be easier to create a black hole and roll the sun into it. If the sun gets too hot from all the various comets and stuff flying into it and fueling it up, my original idea was to cool it down. Maybe instead we could knock it into a black hole corner pocket and position at the center of the solar system a smaller and less hot sun. I'll leave it up to Obama and his Ministers to figure out the details.

stu said...

Kirby,

One of the commenters said that if you put the sun into a bucket of water the size of the solar system it would go out after first sizzling for one million years.

I suspect the commentor was considering only heat-transfer, and neglecting the gravitational consequences of this much water.

I did a calculation, assuming a spherical shape, and a solar-system radius equal to the mean orbital radius of Pluto, the mass is 8.6e41 kg. This is pretty close to the best estimates for the mass of the entire Milky Way. I suspect that this would collapse into a black hole in slightly longer than the amount of time it takes for light to travel from Pluto to the Sun, about 5 1/2 hours.

If the sun gets too hot from all the various comets and stuff flying into it and fueling it up, my original idea was to cool it down.

The sun will in time get too hot. But, there have been somewhat more realistic proposals than trying to reduce the heat output of the sun -- which is beyond not only our current technologies, it's beyond our current physics. The simplest (or so it seems to me) is to put an earth-sized shade at the L1 point (this is a gravitationally stable point between the earth and sun), that passes 98% or so of the sun's energy. The shade itself would have to be slowly rotating (to avoid gravitational collapse). AFAIK, this is beyond our current technology, but it is physically plausible. Presumably we'd get the materials out of the asteroids, so as not to have to lift them out of the earth's gravitational well.

stu said...

Kirby,

My mistake. The Schwarzschild radius of the Milky Way is ~0.2 light years. So the question of how long it takes for a solar-system sized body of water to become a black hole is meaningless. It is a black hole.

Kirby Olson said...

Neat ideas I have never heard or and have never considered. How would you keep the shade in place?

Kirby Olson said...

Neat ideas I have never heard or and have never considered. How would you keep the shade in place?

stu said...

Kirby,

How would you keep the shade in place?

The reason for putting it at the Lagrange point is that it's gravitationally neutral. Very small amounts of thrust would keep it in place. To keep the shade itself from collapsing, you'd make it light and slowly rotating.

There is a wiki article: Space sunshade

Kirby Olson said...

Would it be controlled from earth or would we have some capacity to blow it up if it somehow got into our gravitational field and threatened to land on NYC?

stu said...

Kirby,

Would it be controlled from earth or would we have some capacity to blow it up if it somehow got into our gravitational field and threatened to land on NYC?

I would imagine that a mature proposal would address issues of safety. But if a rocket puts it there, it stands to reason that a rocket could move it, and perturb its orbit so that it decayed into another planet/moon.

jh said...

does rhetoric ever collapse into a black hole
are there purple holes
flourescent green holes

what about white holes
i mean let's be fair

bleak hell

jh

Craig said...

There are also designs on the drawing board for solar reflectors that could be used to amplify solar warmth on Mars. It's conjectured that raising the mean temperature on Mars by about twenty or thirty degrees could set off a runaway greenhouse effect, particularly if the planet were first seeded with lichens and other microorganisms capable of tolerating the harsh climate. Ninety percent of the current Martian atmosphere is carbon dioxide. Lichens are photosynthetic, meaning they grow by converting CO2 into plant fibre by releasing oxygen. Suitable lichens have already been identified in Earth's arctic and antarctic regions. It's likely to require the better part of a millennium to terraform Mars, but the project is feasible even within the confines of today's primitive earth science technology.

Kirby Olson said...

I didn't know this had gotten so far along. Why would it take a millenium? Would this take Mars out of its orbit or screw it up somehow? What are the worries?

jh said...

i'm worried abut the pythagoroean harmony of the planets and the spheres space intricately organized so you can almost hear it well you can in fact whenever a bird sings nearby but still what if "pi" no longer applies or occu pize a place in space then we're essentiall mathematecally well for lack of a better word screwed as it were plumb screwed if A squared times B squared no longer equals C squared well i mean they start messin' with the harmonic spheres everyone goes apeshit they force drugs into the water systems and we're phuqqed i tell you anyway too much to do to be too worried today but i say leave space alone we've tampered enough with space i mean it amounts to children finding zits for the first time and popping them really when you think about it these little zitts of rockets blasting out of the pores of the earth and hitting space like a dirty mirror and finding nothing really i mean what have the astronouts found nothing they've found rocks and meteors and dust and weightlessness so what who cares tell me one good reason to continue the space program i think people need to rediscover the space between their ears and not let the scientists probe into the brain anymore that's dangerous we shouldn't be letting those hooligans probe and tweek the brain i don't care how high falutin' their honorable objectives are down with the brain surgeons

less than a hundren people have been beyond the earth's atmosphere and many of those have died trying
it's not worth it

wouldn't it be easier to let the buffalo herds run wild again and let the salmon do their run thing again

when women get off birthcontrol the world will cool down again
and quit wabboling like a drunken clown

we've lost the race but at least the popcorn is free

jh

 
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