
Minimalism was a term used for the poetry, fiction and art of the 1970s. In fiction it meant the spare style of Raymond Carver and his associates (ok, it mainly meant Raymond Carver). In poetry it referred to the work of Robert Creeley, Richard Brautigan, and especially Aram Saroyan. There were others who worked in similar veins such as the poet Larry Fagin, and Tom Clark. Saroyan was the best-known of the poets because his entire book of poems was read on the nightly news. Among these poems was the single word poem -- ligh-ght (I recite it from memory -- is that how it went?).
In art the work of Carl Andre (better known for having given a push to his wife's career -- ! -- as she fell out of a skyscraper window after an argument). His piece SULCUS is represented above (Sulcus, 1980, Western red cedar wood, overall 150 x 90 x 90 cm).
In general one could say that the minimalism of the 70s comes about because of the lack of belief in transcendence. This leads to a paring down to the basic "It is what it is." This Buddhist approach is deeply intertwined with the rise of Buddhism among the lapsed left who find in it a corollary for their paring.
Poems are reduced to single words.
In sculpture it is a basic shape, or a building block. Donald Judd, Robert Smithson, Richard Serra.
There was a precursor to this movement among the Objectivists, and in the notion of WCW's, that there are NO IDEAS BUT IN THINGS.
In some branches of LANG-PO words themselves become things and have no significance beyond themselves (Viz-PO).
The Humean notion that only the tangible exists because of the unproven provenance of God creates a meaning-poor art work that is nevertheless suggestive in its material existence. However, aesthetics itself takes a nose-dive (as did Carl Andre's wife), as do morals, and many find themselves without words to describe larger universals. The flattening affect of Andy Warhol is part of this. He "presents" soup cans, traffic accidents, and major Hollywood stars next to Mao and the electric chair, but these become merely tangible surfaces. Everything becomes surface, and larger meaning is a joke. (One wonders if Warhol wasn't lampooning the movement, and instead asking us to get serious. His secret Catholic paintings presented in the Dillenberger book make this an open question.)
For the secular left, transcendental universals such as beauty and morality disappeared with God. As God disappeared, they nevertheless felt guilty about dispensing with justice. How could they dispense with justice, and still be the guilt-provoking left? how could they lord it over others if there were no larger meanings? Therefore, they decided that guilt is a matter of tangible surfaces. If you were identifiably white and male, you were guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors. If you were not, you had to be freed from the white males. What attracted the left to the simplicity of race and gender judgment was the tangible aspect of these categories. Race and gender were something everyone could point to, and it could determine guilt or innocence, as if the sign of race and gender determined the transcendent and universal nature of individuals.
To those of us who continued to believe in God, there was a laughable idiocy about the denial of a universal soul, and God, and the misrepresentation of justice via an idolization and demonization of race and gender, irrespective of any actual narrative, or any actual action or activities on the part of an individual. OJ Simpson was innocent because he was black. Tiger Woods was a good man because he was black. Albert Schweitzer was bad because he was white and male. If a woman chopped off her husband's penis she should go free because she was lopping off a signifier that had entrapped women for millenia. etc.
Yoko Ono presented an apple just as it is.
Meanwhile, there was a rush to find tangibles that could mark the fight for justice and give the squirrelly left something to squeak about. Glass ceilings were invoked. IQ and sports scores were idolized, and became real, and scientific, signs. But then the left said, let's go back and look at this IQ business. Signs in a narrative that presented a very simple narrative having to do with the superiority of the underclasses, a bizarre notion that came from Marx, but then leaked into race and gender discourse, and turned everything upside down, were not supported by Herrnstein's IQ discourse. Therefore Herrnstein was an evil idiot and it was a good thing he was dead. (Nevertheless, the left will still tell you they are smarter than the right, and will invoke IQ scores and college degrees to prove it.)
The young went for Buddha, and the notion of the eternal present. But time also got into the mix. As people smoked pot and saw things around them for the first time (Saroyan was stoned as he wrote his one-word poems, like, man, like, like), the particular turned into universals as huge quantities of dope went up in smoke, and women went out windows, and the intuitive faculty, too, came to distrust signs like the American flag, but to put total faith in signs of race and gender, which became the ultimate reality.
Quantification mattered, but not when it came to IQ. That was too difficult to decide. Race and gender were easy to decide. White meant bad. "Of color" meant good.
Quality is harder to read and so is largely forgotten, but not entirely. In the work of the best minimalists one can discern quality, but I would be hard-pressed to say why a Creeley poem is better than a Fagin poem, or why a Saroyan is better than either. Some of the secularists such as Ed Dorn crept back toward God and an implied Protestantism, but they never worked out a broad goal, or actually went into the church. The smarter ones almost said oops! But never issued a mea culpa.
Somehow it wasn't their style. Style was still problematic.
In sports the raw quantity determines the winner, but there might have been one stylish triple-play by the loser that is the only thing we recall ten years later.
In getting rid of narrative, and turning to the immediately simple, as Hume did, and as the lapsed left did in the 1960s and more so in the 1970s, after lapsing into drug use and giggles, a serious narrative snuck back in to the vacuum, in a simple set of signage having to do with race, and gender, and superiority crept back in with it, as a linear narrative again began to arise. Women were better than men, and had more wisdom than them. If women were racial too, then they had twice the wisdom, and became wise Latinas, and were promoted to the Supreme Court.
IQ was a tricky concept because one wondered if it was scientifically valid. It didn't seem to back the concepts that were wanted by the race and gender thesis, so it was concluded to be invalid.
Meanwhile, the now nearly invisible right reformulated itself, and began a counter-narrative. A huge tsunami having to do with equality, and the reassertion of universal rights, and the Lockean notion of the four freedoms, swept back into the presidency in the person of George Bush. The left objected. Bush was white and male and from TEXAS. The conservatives found a channel on TV (FOX), and got tremendous numbers of visitors, and in the fine arts realm they began to tell a whole different story. In poetry, rhyming and meter and stories began again (ask GM), and in novels, there were again symbols, and characters, and morals. The quality of representation began to matter again in paintings. Things that cannot be measured or quantified such as humor and quality again became touched upon and known through the intuition. And some even started going back to church and believing that there is a timeless God in spite of a lack of tangible proof. But there is no proof of anything. We take our marriages on faith, and we take our children on faith. We know that our father is in heaven, and that life is good and that love exists, and that it will never end.
47 comments:
The last paragraph is clearly off-base, doesn't make sense, and is wrong.
Bush came after Clinton, a white male from Arkansas.
At the beginning of this post, your focus on minimalism seemed like something new and possibly even logical/useful.
Then it just devolved into the same disconnected cheerleader scattershot drivel.
You act as though the 80s never happened.
You act as though the legislative branch of the government wasn't run by republicans for much of the 90s.
You act on ignorance, either willful or unfortunate.
yada yada yada,
snore snore snore...
The left objected to Bush because he caused us to be years behind in the clean energy revolution (something we need to lead for environmental, security, and economic purposes...take your pick, or choose all three), either lied to us or fooled himself into starting an unnecessary war, and created structural deficits since he didn't believe in paying for anything (which are now, illogically [but expectedly] being blamed on Obama).
it woould be hard to out do the initial critique here
perhaps in honor and hommage to the concept of minimalismmm we should let that comment stand alone
like a piece of wood in an art show
my minimalist gesture for this time of year will be a lenten abstention from the blogosphere...i enjoy that blabber over here immensely and admire kirbyeez ability to manage the intellectual offerings of people every day...4000 people reading each day ...you've got to be kidding....probably all patty smith types
so for lent i'm bowing out
and plan to study up on voodoo
as an ulterior practice in catholic practical theology
my first doll is curtis
jh
Brett,
I wanted to try to put Humpty Dumpty back together again in the last paragraph.
It seems that if you don't accept the immaterial, the realm of grace, you have only the brute facts, which don't add up to much.
I think Andre's objects are gorgeous. Notice it's made of redwood which adds to the colossal quality a fragrance.
I love the smell of redwood in the mourning.
JH, I for one will be sorry to see you go.
I'm back down to 500 hits or so on weekends. Not sure how many people actually read the posts.
I think in general what people want is what Barthes thought of as professional wrestling.
CHRISTIANITY embodied in one character, and SECULARISM in another, and a good match between good and evil, however they see it.
That's the political side of the blog.
It used to be somewhat fun when we would get masked contestants like J emerge out of nowhere, but then of course the notion of civility broke down, and it became mayhem, and there was no forward progress.
We all ought to be doing other things, I'm sure.
There is probably a Wikipedia article on Voodoo Economics.
We still need to know the history of Christianity in Haiti.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_economics
There are also separate articles on supply side economics.
I won't have time to read these today. Have to ferry kids around to basketball games, and I'm reading a book about the rights of trees.
Leave it to Kirby.
1402 words,
8031 characters,
on the topic of succinctness.
For the secular left, transcendental universals such as beauty and morality disappeared with God. As God disappeared, they nevertheless felt guilty about dispensing with justice.
And the secular right differs how?
I assume only in that (a) they define justice as meaning that "they get their's," and (b) in not feeling the slightest guilt about the getting of it.
Not everything that's fragmented needs to be put back together.
Sometimes, a group of fragments makes more sense than the humpty-dumpty that forms if you try to force pieces together that don't fit.
More importantly, and more relevantly, not everything that's fragmented should, or Can, be put together into the exact same humpty dumpty.
There are fumpty wumpties, lumpty grumpties, and fickly pricklies galore out there.
Heck, even a few garrfarrbls and whatwhichits.
But if you take a slimmidy winkit, break it up into pieces, and try to make it a humpty dumpty, you will actually get a slumpy winkty...
Which,
as we All know,
would destroy the earth.
i think brett just came up with the mutherdoogan of all mutherdoogans
JH -
Thank you klundoobibly, my breshleveckitus.
The left has sitting side by side two apparently irreconcilable notions. One is that there is no connecting thread between any events, and there is no reason that things have happened as they do. In their famous phrase that filthifies the bumpers of automobiles, polluting the language of kindergartners who can read and have to be subjected to the left's viewpoint, "Shit happens."
Simultaneously, there is the other peculiar problem. Which is that anything you want to do that doesn't affect anyone else directly is your own business. This comes out of JS Mill's arguments for the private sphere, and the notion for instance that long-standing adulterous relationships are no one's business (Mill had one of these for fifteen years or so with another man's wife).
All lines or ethics disappear in the left if they lead to personal pleasure.
However, at the same time, a scapegoating mechanism has appeared that does explain good and evil. The wealthy, white, and male, are the locus of all evil. Everyone else is innocent, and are Holy Innocents.
This peculiar amalgam of ideas has created a poisonous stew for the Democratic party to contend with.
They operate only be demonizing the right.
I'm not saying that the right is perfect or even that they are pretending to be. Instead, you have the remnants of a functioning workable ethos in the right based on Locke and Smith and Wesson in the legal sphere and in those who still attend churches, you have the Ten commandments.
The left that still attends churches attends those churches for which the Sermon on the Mount is the only regulatory speech event. Love is all you need. Except that you get to viciously hate anyone who isn't part of this so-called answer.
Sulcus is a medical term:
The Sulcus sign is an orthopedic evaluation test for glenohumeral instability of the shoulder. With the arm straight and relaxed to the side of the patient, the elbow is grasped and traction is applied in an inferior direction. With excessive inferior translation, a depression occurs just below the acromion. The appearance of this sulcus is a positive sign.
from Wikipedia
Kirby, I think you should change the name of your blog to "Tilting at Windmills."
Or, perhaps,
"Statues Made of Matchsticks."
JH knows what I'm talkin' about!
(more on point, the left has more of a tendency to find More narratives, not to dispense with narratives (connecting threads between events). The right's narrative is always just the same old song, without even a different flavor - it's why you, Kirby, always have every issue come back to your righty=Lockey canard...)
This is why the left naturally has a tendency toward a bit of arrogance - the right can't seem to understand more than one or two ideas or arguments at a time.
The left, on the other hand, has the intellectual capacity to look at events from multiple levels and distinguish between kinds, although is bad at communicating these in bumper-sticker friendly ways.
(I think that's the right's big problem with Obama - he is the only Democrat to come along in a while who can both find multiple, more relevant narratives And come up with a few bumper stickers here and there to sell himself. He didn't realize that he needed to keep bumper-stickering himself out there so that the right's bumper stickers weren't the only bumper stickers in play, but I do believe he's starting to see the inextricable link between constantly campaigning and effectively governing.)
The right conflates, conflates, conflates! Which makes 'em come off as simpletons.
I know they're not, but that's where the stereotype comes from.
The left allows for lots of narratives, so terms like 'flop-flop' or 'doesn't know what he believes' gain more traction.
Righties who think that Lefties think like Righties then label the lefties with conflated, bumper-sticker friendly phrases...If the left isn't actively out there bumper-stickering Themselves, they get framed and defined by the other side.
This is where we are now.
Bolshevik plot and all
Brett,
I think you should change the name of your blog to "Tilting at Windmills."
Actually, and this is quite remarkable given the esteem that Kirby claims that he gives the ten commandments, "Bearing False Witness," might be more apropos, for that is surely what he is doing w.r.t. the left.
And I see you and jh and Wendy and a few others as trying to bear truthful witness against him, much more so than simple advocacy.
Clearly there are real issues that divide the left and the right, and clearly there are sensible ways to frame these issues and approach them. But that's not what tends to happen here.
This is why the left naturally has a tendency toward a bit of arrogance - the right can't seem to understand more than one or two ideas or arguments at a time.
Brett, here I think we arrive at an important point of fundamental difference between liberal and conservative. Your perception is that we are always harping on the same stuff and that this shows a lack of imagination. My way of looking at it would be to say that there are matters of particular importance upon which a great deal hinges. If we don't get these few things right, then the rest goes to hell no matter what.
"he is the only Democrat to come along in a while who can both find multiple, more relevant narratives"
And what might those narratives be? I could take a stab at it, but I suspect it might fit on a bumper sticker and I would hate to do injustice to our Big-Thinker in Chief. The question is sincere, though that last bit was clearly sarcastic.
I think this post attempts to get at something important and it's ruffling some feathers.
The point, as I understood it, is that there has been an intellectual/artistic movement that has called transcendence and meaning into question. More pointedly, it has effectively denied these two things.
From this, again as I understood it, Kirby makes the move that the Left has been more vulnerable to this intellectual shift than the Right. That is to say, to a certain degree at any rate, they have identified with it.
Stu considers this to be "bearing false witness." Brett likens it to "tilting at windmills." But is it true? Has the Left been particularly influenced by this idea of non-transcendental, anti-greater meaning thought?
He makes a further move to suggest that there has been a popular reaction to this. For the time being I'm not interested in that until we first look at the first question.
So has the Left been particularly influenced by this idea of Minimalism? Or not?
Stu, could you give me evidence that I am knowingly bearing false witness with regard to "the left"?
I think you have to remember that
a. I was a leftist for a very long time (though never a Marxist)
and b. it was my perceived rise of the Marxist elements of the left esp. within the Democratic party that led me to bail
I have no interest in bearing false witness against the left. I do however deeply wish to out the prevailing Marxist viewpoint that is gathering steam from within that party.
I also perceive various elements of the "churches of what's happening right now" as having taken up a lot of those Marxist elements -- probably often without realizing what they have done.
My blog exists to recognize and name these tendencies, and also to substitute for them some older two kingdoms' remedies.
But if you are going to accuse me of bearing false witness, you should at least give me the evidence on which you base your accusations.
Quote actual sentences if possible. Otherwise, I can't respond to the charges as made.
Brett's last few comments were just ridiculous, in my view.
I do think that in this post I made enormous leaps between the art movements of the seventies (just that consisted of enormous leaps to even connect the poems of Saroyan and the sculptures of Andre), but they both consisted of a certain minimalist tendency, so I made tenuous but interesting connections.
To leap from there to a sense of a Humean position wrt the secularist left, I think, was also tenuous, but still founded on fact, on archipelagoes of factual evidence.
The art of the right -- which is harder to document -- because it is not as prevalent, and is in many cases only nascent, often provides a very different and very full picture, but it's also art that I'm not very grounded in (I don't understand the new formalists very well -- GM has read Dana Gioia, and seems to go to their conferences, and apparently writes in these formats -- I studied with Ginsberg and others on the left and am more familiar with that work -- I like the aesthetic even if I am sometimes quite unaccustomed to the ethical beliefs that have arisen in the crannies of this work -- Ginsberg's last poems completely revolted me -- and made me question my allegiance to the left -- )
Was I hoodwinked?
There are also to the right very accomplished realists in the area of portraiture. I don't know their work terribly well. That's all a new area for me, and something I would not have looked at except with disdain until more recently.
But I seem to have gone completely out of one watershed of artistic endeavor and am reluctantly and carefully going down or at least over into another.
I see no attempt at bearing false witness.
I wonder if the accusation of false witness is itself a bearing of false witness.
You'd have to show me evidence for your claims that I am bearing false witness.
I also don't see Wendy as having attacked me (she thinks there are saints in the Lutheran tradition, but there aren't supposed to be any aside from the apostles plus Paul, according to Luther's own words).
But again she grew up in a Lutheran household with lots of pastors scurrying around, whereas I am coming back to the tradition after decades in a green anarchist left.
One of the merits of this blog from my viewpoint is that I have the benefit of learning from others. When you have a whole posse of people from different tribes pursuing the truth, you are more likely to bag it.
But I haven't in any sense abandoned the truth.
Please give me the benefit of formally charging me by producing evidence to the contrary!
As for Marxist tendencies even within Obama's own administration, we need look no further than Van Jones, Obama's Green Czar, who had explicit links with Maoist groups.
Within ACORN, there appear to have been many many many such individuals.
To my knowledge, Obama has never formally acknowledged wrongdoing within ACORN, and continues to try to revamp this sinister vigilante group and to pump them full of federal money so that they can continue their extralegal doings.
That Obama is at least familiar with the Marxist rhetoric of professors is obvious since he states as much in his own autobiography in which he states that he deliberately sought out Marxist professors when he was in college.
He worked with extralegal vigilante Bill Ayers (the extent of his involvement with this terrorist does not have a consensus, but he did at least know him quite well, and better than he has let on).
His wife has spoken like a Marxist.
Sotomayor has spoken like a Marxist.
If these people talk like Marxists, how are they not Marxists? when Obama has spoken about redistribution of wealth, how is this not Marxist?
We still do not know the full extent of Obama's linkage with Marxism, but he is certainly familiar with Marxist thought. His mentor the poet Frank Marshall was a member of the Community Party. Obama knew him for decades, and his poem published at Occidental College is clearly in reference to drinking with him.
Obama's pastor, Reverend Wright, is very very clearly a Marxist, deeply ensconced in Liberation Theology. Obama was a member of that church for decades.
I think that all of this is documented fact by now.
Whether or not Obama has another healthier side remains to be seen. I don't see any evidence for it. He sought out Marxist professors in college. He sought out a Marxist church as an adult.
Do you see hard evidence of his association with Lockean liberals, or his deliberately seeking out Smithian colleagues?
Correction, Bush is from Conn, a fact he goes out of his way to hide. I have to agree with Brett, this blog is a broken record repeating the same ill-informed observations.
Kirby:
I found your posting on "minimalism" informative as well as suggestive in its attempt to link the post-Enlightenment leftist impulse to exalt immanence and permanent revolution (the essence of hegemonic "progressivism") at the expense of openness to transcendence and respect for tradition characteristic of the right (which includes a number of post-Enlightenment "classic liberal" thinkers).
A longer essay by Thomas Bertonneau of SUNY, Oswego bears some striking similarities to your posting's approach, here:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4308
Although Bertonneau invokes the long-departed philosopher Eric Voegelin as his Vergilian vademecum through the post-Enlighternment "progressivist" inferno, he links the latter's philosophical approach to a critique of the current lib-left-Obama programme for "remaking" America, as if human nature were as malleable as gold.
It's not surprising that Brett should find fault with your posting--classic case of "onos luras" ("ass to the lyre")--but stu's accusation of "Bearing False Witness" vis a vis the left is a bit surprising in the wake of his magisterial reduction of the "secular right" as follows:
"I assume only in that (a) they define justice as meaning that 'they get their's [sic],' and (b) in not feeling the slightest guilt about the getting of it."
Thank you, Mr. Picklesworth. I wish Jacques and Emmy would reappear, or some others to my right. I am presently being met with a number of vigorous deniers of any validity to anything I present, replete with remonstrations that I am a false witness, and implications that I am a dolt, without any specifics.
I suppose this is similar to being served up among Holocaust deniers if I were a Jew.
But the problem is that I have tried to present a very finely focused case on various art movements who have moved toward minimalism.
It may be that my current readers don't know anything about these movements, but only deny the last paragraph, since that's where the focus of all the rebuttal has been.
That's fine with me, but with Picklesworth, I think the tendency to move toward very minimal factual assertion has destroyed a very delicate realm of values.
I think this has not only been done in the artistic sphere, but also within the religious sphere.
A broad acceptance of the Sermon on the Mount has taken precedence over the rest of the Bible,
assertions that I am a false witness to the contrary (selective use of the Commandments but without any factual evidence in THIS case, and a blank ignoring of my stated request for evidence).
It does seem to me that all these denials, combined with blanket statements, indicate that, as in the game of Battleship, I may have scored a point, is met with vociferous denials even from people who haven't commented for months.
Is it not true that there is a huge upsurge of Marxist within the left straight on up to the presidency?
Can anyone deny that Obama is fully aware of Marxism, even against his own assertions to the contrary that he "sought out Marxist professors" while in college?
What standing does truth have here?
Cany anyone be specific as I have tried to be -- not only citing actual movements, actual artists, and actual statements, but tying them to large themes?
Mere denial because my viewpoint is from another paradigm than your own doesn't do anything but put you all into the category of holocaust deniers.
Brett's arguments are even worse than Stu's. He seems to put his fingers in his ears and do nonsense songs.
Finally, Tom says that Bush is from Connecticut, and that somehow wipes out everything I said in the post, even though it's only partially true that Bush is "from" the northeast.
(One could equally say, and it has been said, that he is from Maine.)
(But when it's needed, it is also said that he is from Texas.)
Kirby,
Stu, could you give me evidence that I am knowingly bearing false witness with regard to "the left"?
I'm glad I've gotten your attention. You ask a fair question, although you've added a word (knowingly) that is not a part of the ten commandments, and which I never claimed. And by adding it, you change the question in a significant way, and have me making an accusation that I did not make. There is a important distinction between lying (making statements that you believe to be false) and bearing false witness (saying that you have been a witness to things that you have not witnessed). The later can happen through carelessness.
In particular, you often claim a position that commands a global view of the left, and which you pronounce to be Marxist through-and-through. I deny both the specific claim (that leftists are all Marxists), but more relevantly in this context very possibility that you can possess the perspective that makes it possible to make such a judgment (here is where the false witness enters in).
On to particulars...
I think you have to remember that
a. I was a leftist for a very long time (though never a Marxist)
So you've said, but let me (a) question whether or not this is true, and (b) note that by making this claim, you admit the possibility that it is possible to be leftist but not Marxist, something which you've witnessed does not occur.
As regards (a), I've not seen any evidence of this. Certainly, your semi-autobiographical novel describes a long period of alienation. Perhaps even ennui towards all things academic or otherwise anchoring. It seems at times that you identify this sophisticated boredom with culture as possessing liberal views. It is not.
If you want to sustain this claim, please state previously held specific positions in common with liberals, and opposed to conservative belief. E.g., an esteem for social justice, a sense that we can and should work together collectively for our common good and that the government can be an appropriate agent for marshalling this activity, or a tolerance for lifestyles, religions, and beliefs that differ from your own. This list is not intended to be proscriptive, and I'd be happy to consider other specific differentiating beliefs that you might suggest.
and b. it was my perceived rise of the Marxist elements of the left esp. within the Democratic party that led me to bail
Here I think you're overgeneralizing based on your experience. I do not seek to deny your experience, although I very much disagree with your interpretation of it. But it is in universalizing a very particular set of experiences that claim to have witnessed phenomenon that it is not possible for you to have witnessed, and to ascribe to people motivations where it is implausible that you have access to their motivations.
I have no interest in bearing false witness against the left. I do however deeply wish to out the prevailing Marxist viewpoint that is gathering steam from within that party.
By doing the later the way you've done, you're doing the former.
Quote actual sentences if possible. Otherwise, I can't respond to the charges as made.
I'd be happy to go back and do so, but I believe I've laid my case out here. I'm not trying to throw bombs (although I don't doubt it feels that way to you). I'm am getting tired of having the same old bombs thrown at me, the same old falsehoods, whether your know them to be so or not. The problem is in your claim that you've witnessed them to be so, making it impossible to separate the issue at hand from an argument over your integrity as a witness.
Was I hoodwinked?
Let me cordially suggest yes. You seem to find morally offensive, sexually libertine lifestyles/work only on the left. Explain, then, de Sade, who is undeniably a figure of the right. de Sade is hardly unique.
I understand your point about the basic principles that the right seeks to protect - the problem is when there's a Democratic president, the right claims that almost Everything the president does violates those basic principles, when in fact, it simply doesn't - Healthcare being a prime example, which Obama addressed rather astutely in his Q&A with Republicans.
I wonder how the right's going to respond to Obama's invitation for an open, half-day televised debate on healthcare?
I think, again, Obama's starting to realize that he needs to campaign, especially on Healthcare - the more people know what's in the bill (as opposed to just the way it's been characterized by the hyperventilating right), the more people like it.
I always find interesting the polls that show that when it comes to the specific policies proposed in the Healthcare bill, the public is very supportive, yet when they're asked about the bill itself, they reject it.
This points to a rhetoric/reality gap that the GOP is going to really want to maintain, so it'd be ballsy of them to agree to the debate.
And Kirby: My last few comments weren't ridiculous, they were ludic.
Come on, join in the fun!
And I do think that the basic principle I was focusing on in the first post that used nonsensical words (a post that was not, however, nonsensical) was quite right on the money, and was an astute critique of one of your rhetorical flaws.
You force everything to fit into your preconceived narrative, and that approach simply isn't always relevant.
The left simply isn't as ideologically driven (at least, or especially, this president isn't), so when you try to focus on what you've labeled as the Democrat's analogous all-encompassing narrative (race, gender, class), you resort to obvious contradictions.
(this was most glaring in your swill about how the left hated Bush because he was a Southern White Male, when in fact the left loved Clinton, who was White, male, and Actually Southern, unlike Kennebunkport and Connecticut Bush).
W.B. - I'll give you a few examples, but there are more re: Obama's 'multiple narratives' or 'less-simplistic narratives.'
The right tends toward a 'you're either with us or against us' and 'Freedom Fries' viewpoint.
Obama, on the other hand, says things like this about Europe:
"Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive..."
AND this
"But in Europe, there is an anti-Americanism that is at once casual, but can also be insidious. Instead of recognising the good that America so often does in the world, there have been times where Europeans choose to blame America for much of what is bad."
The right screams 'OBAMA'S APOLOGIZING FOR AMERICA!'
The left (well, at least I) will say 'actually, that's about right, and is a good start to re-energizing our relationships with the countries that Bush's policies and approach disenfranchised.' The former is a much better bumper-sticker than the latter.
Another example is the Iraq/Afghanistan situation...
Obama's stance is that Iraq was an unnecessary war that stole our resources and attention from Afghanistan, where those who attacked us were given safe haven, yet being that after we invaded Iraq the country was unstable and Al Qaeda started to move in, we need to remain engaged in Iraq as long as the previous administration had planned (since, finally, they got it 'right' with regards to Iraq in 2007), and responsibly withdraw as security increased and the Iraqi government is able to take charge. In Afghanistan, we need to have an initial surge of troops, doubling our presence there in a little over a year, since the Bush administration's policies left Afghanistan still unsafe and in shambles, and yet we need to set a soft deadline for when we are going to Start withdrawing troops to give the Afghani government a sense that we won't be there forever and that they need to step up in terms of taking responsibility for their own country.
The left hasn't done much to bumper-stickerize the above, and the right has yelled 'Obama is comforting the terrorists!'
The bumper-stickerers of the left disagree with obama, since their bumper-sticker is 'war=bad!'
Anyway, another way of phrasing my initial argument is that the right tends to oversimplify, and the left tends to over-complicate, which is the origin of much of the attack-language from both sides.
Which means that those on the left who bumper-sticker tend to be a smaller, less influential group within the Democratic party than the bumper-stickerers on the right, where bumper-stickering is more natural.
Brett:
I'm sure that in Austin (where you live) you're no stranger to a wide array of leftie bumper-stickers of all sorts (of the "Coexist" to "No Endless War" to "Zionism=Racism" to "What Right To Eat a Plant?" varieties), no? Many college-town cars are plastered with 'em, though most of these political bandage-strips are lookin' pretty faded these days. . . .
Kirby - I was obviously attacking your last paragraph, as I think it takes away from what was otherwise a pretty good post.
All of your accusations about Obama's Marxism are based on guilt-by association.
What policies has Obama proposed that are Marxist, relative to other presidents? The auto-bailout is the closest thing, and, to be honest, I'd like to hear more about it from the mainstream media.
His tax policy makes him one of the Least Marxist presidents when compared to prezzes from the 20th century (including Communists like Richard Nixon and Dwight Eisenhower).
Otherwise, Obama's just been doing lots of tax cuts, and mainstream Keynesian stimulus, and Bob-Dole style healthcare, and the TARP bailouts signed by Bush. Hell, he's even privatizing half of NASA.
COMMIE!
Saying a president is Marxist because he knew some Marxist professors in college is simply a leap that is insubstantial enough as to need no real response.
You seem, Kirby, to just be repeating the tired Glenn Beck lines. "Marxist pastor! Inflated relationship with Ayers! ACORN ACORN ACORN!"
Bush being from Connecticut doesn't derail your argument... That's just a fun little jabby jab at the dog-and-pony show of Bush's 'real American'ness.
Bill Clinton being white, and male (like most Democratic politicians) and Actually from the South however, does.
Oh, and comparing us to Holocaust deniers because we disagree with your condemnatory labelings and fallacious attacks against the left?
rly?
Your claim that our responses means you've 'scored a point' does not hold up when you consider Godwins Law:
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
"a good rule in most discussions is that the first person to call the other a Nazi automatically loses the argument."
An interesting case where I felt you were being a False Witness was when you said, more than once I believe but I may be wrong about that, that Obama was spending ALL his time on the Skip Gates case during the period when he issued a first statement, than a second statement (backtracking a little), then the invitation for a beer, and finally hosted the actual meeting. Do you have any evidence that he was spending 24 hours a day on the matter? You will say, I imagine, that you were just being light-hearted, but it is very annoying reading such things.
An example of your confusion, hot off the press, is when you say "shit happens" is a Leftist saying. I feel confident saying that that's American folk humor, neither Left, Right, or
Center.
Obama spoke in his Nobel speech about how America has never fought a war against a democracy. He seems to have forgotten what he should have learned from the Marxist professors he associated with--that in the 50's the U.S. overthrew elected democratic regimes in Guatemala (Arbenz) and Iran (Mossadegh)--and there's our part in the overthrow of Allende in Chile, however exactly you judge the percentage of blame the US should take. You seem unable to distinguish Obama from Leninist Marxists, nor from reflexively anti-American anarchists like Chomsky and Zinn. I say he's different from them for BOTH better and worse.
Kirby:
In light of your twentieth posting I reread your original one and found your connexion between minimalist art and Marxist-leftist socio-political stances asserting the hegemony of the immanent and the material even more compelling. My first posting preceded your twentieth, so your call for support was presciently answered. I think your points deeper and more thoughtful than were reflected in the opposition they provoked from Brett and stu.
Perhaps Brett might get over his objection to your examples in the last paragraph (though I've no great quarrel with them) and stu might acknowledge at least the worth of what you say about minimalist art from a philosophical-aesthetic point of view (at least Brett conceded something on that score). At any rate, good post.
However much I disagree with his political views, like you, I'll miss jh's "cut-loose" commentaries and deep knowledge of sacred history and tradition; I'll look forward to his return from the wilderness after Easter.
Jacques, I think my best point in the race-gender-class to minimalist approach was that the rgc deal is grounded in skin and gender, salient qualities that don't in themselves mean ANYTHING.
That is, not all women were oppressed, and not all people of colorless were utterly innocent, and not all white men were guilty of the crimes of southern plantation owners, for instance.
RGC is a false positivism.
At any rate, thank you for weighing in.
For Stephen -- you'd have to quote my exact words to the effect that I said that Obama was spending 24 hours a day on Gates-Gate. I doubt I said that.
QUOTATIONS, please.
Otherwise, it just comes off as false witness.
For Brett -- ok, if this is ludic, I'll buy it. We can use ludic around here.
There is an aspect of the left that I always liked -- the ludic quality. This is apparent in Aram Saroyan, and even in some of Carl Andre's stuff. It's apparent in Raymond Carver.
It disappears often in the Marxist left.
They get very earnest.
As for the healthcare stuff, I want it all on C-Span, as was originally promised.
There is a good side to the debate: if we can get the poor and bums on national insurance the government will spend less on bailouts of individuals.
At present, bums in cities use the emergency room for doctor's appointments because they have no other options.
If they had other options it would be less expensive AND the care would be better, and it would free those rooms for actual emergencies.
But it has to be a national discussion, not a behind the back pass from Obama to Reid in the dark.
This is a big reason why Obama was losing his commanding lead. He was slamming policy down the country's throat without airing any of the details.
Most of the right agree that we need some reforms within the healthcare realm.
It's an enormous mess.
But we don't want government to take it over, because government is not responsive, and it makes government too big.
We need it to remain private, and preferably in the hands of religious institutions -- Cahtolic hospitals strike me as an excellent idea, for instance.
They ought to do something besides hunker down in monasteries and debate whether fingernails will grown in the afterlife.
This gives the Catholics some interaction with the real world, and is thus healthy for all.
I like Catholics.
I invite them here in droves.
But I am leery of too much hierarchy. It's part of my anarchism that still shows.
I don't like secret government decisions very much either.
Sometimes as with national security they have to do that kind of thing, and I do believe in spy-rings and CIA assassinations perhaps to a degree, but not within the country or of the loyal opposition.
Only of known terrorists who have avowed destructino of the USof A!
Kirby:
Sorry my initial circa 3:00 pm posting (prior to your twentieth) didn't get through. Without it, my last posting must seem an enigma. I'll repost it below:
I found your posting on "minimalism" informative as well as suggestive in its attempt to link the post-Enlightenment leftist impulse to exalt immanence and permanent revolution (the essence of hegemonic "progressivism") at the expense of openness to transcendence and respect for tradition characteristic of the right (which includes a number of post-Enlightenment "classic liberal" thinkers).
A longer essay by Thomas Bertonneau of SUNY, Oswego bears some striking similarities to your posting's approach, here:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4308
Although Bertonneau invokes the long-departed philosopher Eric Voegelin as his Vergilian vademecum through the post-Enlightenment "progressivist" inferno, he links the latter's philosophical approach to a critique of the current lib-left-Obama programme for "remaking" America, as if human nature were as malleable as gold.
It's not surprising that Brett should find fault with your posting--classic case of "onos luras" ("ass to the lyre")--but stu's accusation of "Bearing False Witness" vis a vis the left is a bit surprising in the wake of his magisterial reduction of the "secular right" as follows:
"I assume only in that (a) they define justice as meaning that 'they get their's [sic],' and (b) in not feeling the slightest guilt about the getting of it."
Yes, Jacques, I see those bumper-stickers rather frequently.
Yet I don't see the same link between those bumper-stickers and the political establishment/punditry that I see in the righties...
Which is to say that Kirby's attack-stance of pointing to the bumper-stickerers of the left as the exemplars of the Democrats is even less legitimate than doing the same thing to the righties (which is, however, also an illegitimate/fallacious approach to criticism).
The link between the bumper-stickerers and the politicians is closer, imho, on the right than the left - To some degree, I'm sure that's a matter of perception based on my political leanings, but I also think it's an outcome of the political approach and principles of the right...
The bumper stickers from the actual politicians on the left tend to be more substanceless than vitriolic. "hope, change" mean nothing. "Obama is a Commie" has meaning, it's just false.
I don't necessarily think that there's a value difference between over-simplifying/conflating (which I acknowledge as generally a fault of the right) and over-complicating (which I acknowledge as generally a fault of the left).
But when you use the over-simplified side of the left as your object-of-attack, it tends to be less-relevant...
Keeping that in mind, whenever I see a bumper sticker that says "It Will Be a Great Day When the Schools Get All the Money They Need and the Air Force Has to Hold a Bake Sale to Buy a Bomber" I have an instinct to get out of my car and punch that libiot in the face.
It's just as stupid as Palin's viewpoint that only the right accepts people with "special needs." vomit. (especially since, for people who actually Work with the differently abled (I'd guess a high percentage of them are lefties), "special needs" is as offensive a phrase as "retard.")
Crazy Lefties might've called Bush a fascist. But left-leaning politicians, not so much.
Right-leaning politicians calling Obama a Communist/Marxist/Socialist Schemer? Yeah, that happened.
There are idiotic stances/phrases from both sides - it just seems more likely that such silly labeling would come from a vice-presidential/highprofilepossiblypresidential candidate on the right than on the left...
Just like it's more likely that the left would come up with overlycomplicated bureaucracies to fix simple problems.
I do think that Obama is better than most Democrats at balancing this out - but his passive role in the Healthcare debate meant it was left to the normal flubberdigidgit lefties to flob about on, and that was a bad decision on his part.
Jacques, Stu has a strongly reductionist quality.
He's very party line, isn't he?
I have yet to see ANY way in which he isn't a classic exemplar of the academic left.
The one amazing thing is that he goes to church.
That's a complete anomaly, and is the thing that gives me hope.
And Jacques - one of the reasons this post received such an adamant response from me is that much of it had new insight and some interesting ideas - Then in the last paragraph (the 'summation' or 'conclusion' paragraph, usually) Kirby turns it into his standard anti-left wharrgarrbl about race, gender, class, and he used self-evidently-fallacious arguments to do so.
If all of those insights and thoughts and new connections lead Kirby to the idea that "the left hates Bush because he is a Southern White Male" and the normal "the left is nothing, at all, ever, except Race and Gender" it pisses me off more than usual because he's turning potentially-interesting ideas into talking-point useless fruitless hastilygeneralized crap.
It does Not follow that the impact of minimalism led to a left that hates Bush because he's white and male - not at all, because his malewhitesouthernness had nothing to do with the "hatred" from the extremists and "disagree with" from the moderates (we like our Clinton just fine, thank you vurry much).
And if such an interesting initial idea automatically leads to that viewpoint on Kirby's part...
That implies that every interesting idea or connection will lead to that viewpoint from Kirby.
Which makes me real sad inside.
And I don't like being sad for no good reason.
So that makes me mad.
I don't think Stu's 'bearing false witness' line was useful or true, and it's especially sad that he'd do so since we on the left should be better about chastizing others for 'exaggeration' or 'having a gap between the rhetoric and the reality.'
And using biblical language was probably even worse, since it implied that God thinks Kirby's a liar, not just that Stu does...
Kirby used some fallacious, incendiary arguments - but bearing false witness and sophistry are errors which are different in kind and severity... We on the leftier side of things should be better about making such distinctions.
It sounded like the knee-jerk "Bush is a liar!" that the bumper-stickerers went on and on about in the 2000s. Or the 'Palin is stupid' that we got goin' on these days...
And I don't like Stu being a bumper-stickerer - he's too smart for that.
Brett, I do acknowledge your capacity for questioning whether your own opinions may skew your assertions (I think Kirby's postings show he does quite often--he's said a few complimentary things about candidate, now-President Obama in the past). But I'm still schooling myself on sorting your "ludic" from your straightforward "pronunciamenti."
It's probably a moot point to assert that politicians of the right resort to simplistic bumper-sticker slogans more than does the left. I'm sure we both could pile up copious examples on both sides (I'll resist the temptation at present). But I think you and stu fixed on Kirby's closing paragraph and virtually ignored his deeper points, as I mentioned above.
Your initial jab about "Clinton, a white male from Arkansas," e.g., didn't include how strenuously the pro-Obama left berated some of the vaunted "First Black President"'s remarks as "racist" during the Demos' presidential primary campaign. Such hair-trigger invocation of the RCG mantra so common in leftish "bien-pensant" academia tends to poison the candid discourse we all might have on social, political, or even philosophical issues.
Yes, Kirby, stu seems to have the certainty of a Robespierre or Lenin (though not that he shares their murderous programmes, "gratias Deo!").
Brett, don't forget that I have a ludic side as well, and that the final paragraph was a ludic if not ludicrous attempt to link minimalism to some of my favorite talking points.
Even if I had to make saltations on a grandiose scale!
Which is not to say I didn't half-believe those final points.
Kirby,
I have yet to see ANY way in which he isn't a classic exemplar of the academic left.
The one amazing thing is that he goes to church.
That's a complete anomaly, and is the thing that gives me hope.
Logic 101: if you state a universal in one sentence, it is considered poor form to begin your proof by stating a counterexample.
But I might turn around and say much the same about you. I have yet to see any point in which you fail to parrot FOX News talking points. But with perfect symmetry, I do see in our common faith a hope that the gap can be bridged, and some sort of meaningful common ground can be found.
It seems to me that the religious right is living in a word of delusion, believing that their association with the Republican Party somehow reflects a deep shared agenda. It is apparent to me, if not to you, that the religious right is being used. If this were not the case, then surely the Republican's would have outlawed abortion during the period when they controlled the executive, legislative, and judicial branches, instead of just the judicial as at present.
But in the meantime, it is amusing for those of us with a taste for the public display of hubris to listen to your multiply divorced politicians and commentators talk about how they are the defenders of family values, while the once married Obama is a threat to all you hold dear. Just as it is depressing for those of us with a sense of the gospel to see how you and people like you follows those false messiahs.
Bellah was correct.
Jacques - Of course I didn't cite the way Obama's campaign attacked Clinton for his remarks that could be construed as racist...
Because the left doesn't have a problem with white southern men, but it does have a problem with Southern White Men who are racist.
Now, was it fair or prudent or valid of the Obama campaign to focus on that issue to attack Hillary, to exaggerate and misconstrue what Bill said to make him look out of touch, to label him unfairly?
No, and neither was it fair of them to link McCain to the more controversial anti-Hispanic statements of Rush Limbaugh in ads played along the border.
That's, unfortunately, politics. Though in terms of egregiousness of attack/deception, it's hard to find many presidential candidates whose team or extreme supporters haven't done something as bad or worse...
Does the Left sometimes use RCG as campaigning tools? Does the Extreme Left do it often? Yeah, of course - but I don't think they do it much more oft than the Republicans... Remember, poor Sarah Palin just got so attacked so unfairly for being a woman (mainstream argument), and Obama is a secret Muslim born in Kenya(extremist argument).
The difference is, I don't define the entire politics of the right by these things the way Kirby does to define the left.
Kirby's over here having called us Holocaust deniers and saying Dems hate white men. If that's 'ludic,' then so is "Bush is a Fascist and Sarah Palin is an idiot!'
Weee!
Oh, I have no idea what's true about almost anything, but it's fun to mirror one another.
Here's a recent article on IQ.
I have no idea what to think about this either. The authors caution that every individual is different, and shouldn't be treated according to norms.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx
WB,
I think this post attempts to get at something important and it's ruffling some feathers.
Speaking only for myself, I think the parts of this post that are trying to get at something are disjoint from the parts that had my feathers ruffled.
Kirby identifies minimalism in terms of a poetic movement of the '70's, and attempts in his usual way to lasso in a variety of tangentially related phenomenon into a narrative whole, all the while working in gratuitous insults of a left that he misunderstands and misrepresents. This is classic Kirby, yet putting minimalism on trial seems like a peculiar strategy for a Lutheran.
After all, I believe it to be a consensus analysis that Luther had a minimalist theology. His critique of the Catholic Church of his day, after all, was largely phrased in terms of its having obligated belief on questions that were irrelevant to the salvation of the believer. Is not the Lutheran idea of adiaphora a fundamentally minimalist concept -- that we declare this to be a matter essential to salvation, and therefore a matter of doctrine, and that not to be, and therefore a matter of indifference?!
Tip: my Achilles heel is that I am pretty far to the left on green issues. I try to hide this, but I love owls and manta rays, and am vegetarian.
Kirby--
What the hell, man?
EAT A STEAK!
Update on jh: It's been snowing up here in Minnesota for the past two days, fine snow falling to the ground like a silky negligee.
Update on the charity of men: I was the only one at the church yesterday. The parking lot plow guy did not come (busy day elsewhere no doubt.) But just as I was scraping off my car a fellow with a plow turned in off the street, swooped past and cleared a lane for me. Nice.
Kirby,
The left objected. Bush was white and male and from TEXAS.
Clinton was white, male, and from Arkansas. Carter was white, male, and from Georgia. LBJ was white, male, and from Texas.
In the meantime, GWB was as much from the Northeast as from Texas as Brett pointed out. [What true Man of the South goes to Yale?!] GHWB was born in Massachusetts(!), and lives in the Northeast, although he lived in Texas for many years. Reagan and Nixon were from California.
Clinton, and Carter are Baptist. LBJ was Disciples of Christ. GWB is Methodist, GHWB is Episcopalian. Reagan, who rarely attended religious services, claimed to be Presbyterian. Nixon was a Quaker.
The left didn't object to Bush because of accidents of gender, ethnicity, or place of residence. His religion was only ever an issue in that he used it as firewall to deflecting attention the things he did before being born-again (e.g., alcohol and possibly cocaine abuse).
The left objected to Bush because he governed incompetently (e.g., by cutting taxes while raising spending, throwing the budget out of whack), because we was a tool of the rich, and governed in their interest (e.g., structuring tax cuts which disproportionately benefited the rich, removing financial oversight that they considered onerous and in so doing laying the foundation for the financial crisis, weakening environmental legislation, reducing government programs that benefited the poor and middle class), that he did not respect the rule of law (e.g., deciding to go to war against Iraq without legal cause, establishing illegal surveillance of US citizens), and that he made abortion a litmus test for appointing federal judges, while claiming the opposite.
In short, the left objected to Bush because his policies and his incompetence.
Wow, I should have entered this argument earlier, before everyone else threw in their two cents and left in disgust.
Objectivism and minimalism are two entirely different trends (or movements--neither of them fully integrated or organized, by the way, as all of their "participants" were invariably quick to point out and remind us of), neither of which can be summarized the way you do it hear. (Does that make of your entire post a house of cards?--I leave to others to decide.)
Objectivism was about bringing in the immediacy of the physical (material) world, in order that it not be ignored, in order that original tactile and sensual data could be FELT and experienced directly, without being PROCESSED before-hand. It didn't imply minimalism, or a dumbing-down of thought, or a simplification of the creative process. Bringing feeling CLOSER to the ACT and PROCESS of composition--instead of keeping it at arm's length with abstractions and larger conceptual frames. Also, it meant acknowledging material realities so they would be incorporated into the literal subject-matter of the creative process; i.e., poverty and ugliness and abrupt sensations EXIST--they can't be ignored like a homeless person you'd rather pretend isn't pissing in the doorway, asking for a hand-out.
In any case, the LangPo writers--and their names and number are truly open to dispute (especially by me, of all people)--aren't out to "destroy" the signified, but only to play with it in their writing. If you're willing to admit that words can mean "other things" than what we may initially accept as their general definition--and if you're willing to accept that sounds and connotative meanings (spins) adhere to words and phrases (the same way they do to colors and shapes and raw sounds), then it's possible to imagine a literature which explores all those senses freely, and offers us new creations (artifacts) which look and feel and mean differently from traditionally conceived (through the usual) syntactic and signifying codes.
If Clark Coolidge is doing anything, he's exploring those "other" senses of language which exist parallel to quotidian linguistic practice and meaning. Certainly it's possible to read him and experience something of what he's doing, no?
Minimalism, though, isn't about eliminating meaning, either, but about expanding our sensitivity to individual words, and letters themselves. Perhaps even to demystify writing to the extent that it "means" something other than "just words" in a certain order.
Nothing of language's power to explain or persuade or represent is sacrificed by allowing for these explorations. Language isn't going to be eroded or compromised by people exploring different ways of using words. Picasso and Duchamp used materials in completely different ways, and their art is just as profound and interesting as those who made art out of plain old paint and canvas and wood and putty and metal.
Warhol's work exists on many different levels. Some of his work is sensuous and rich, other parts are dry and flat. He was not attempting to draw us into an ordered meditation on space and ratiocination. He was trying to strip away the cliche'd approaches to traditional art objectification, and he largely succeeded, with quite modest means.
I'm thinking of the various things using my own rather than the dictionary definitions, riding roughshed over long-standing boundaries.
But think instead about secular versus transcendent.
Then it flattens all secular movements into a lack of meaning, and into materialism.
This makes it much easier to think about their commonalities.
You can lump all kinds of things together if you get the right viewpoint.
But if you choose to remain within stated definitions, you wouldn't or couldn't do this.
No one should be allowed to define their own viewpoint.
You have to bag them into your own definitions. Mine start with secular versus transcendent.
If you start this way, it's very easy to throw minimalism, objectivism, imagism, and language oriented philosophies into the same bag, like a bunch of cats that hiss they have nothing to do with one another.
Then of course you can drop them from a helicopter and see that they do at least share the same fate, at least from your own perspective.
Hee hee.
Then of course you can see if you can't fit the Democrats into the same bag and lo and behold, they fit, too.
You have to go back at least to the time of Lincoln to do this, but once you do that, it makes it easier to throw the copperheads in with the objectivists and minimalists and others, tie it up, and say, oodles of toodles.
It's so easy, it's so easy.
Yeah, yeah.
You sound a little weird, here, Kirb.
What have you been eating (or drinking)?
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